Kristi McVee (00:01.026)
Hello and welcome back to the conversations with Kristi podcast. Now I'm so excited because Andrew who is my podcast guest today basically reached out to me to, he saw my eye catch killers podcast interview with Gary Jublin and he reached out to me and shared his story. And I actually really do appreciate when someone takes the time out to share what.
they've been through. And Andrew shared his story and I really thought that everyone needed to hear more about it. So we've had a few conversations, Andrew and I, and we've basically, you know, sat down and talked about, you know, all of the things that he's been through, but not only that, his advocacy. And when I had had an interesting conversation with Andrew, the first time was that advocacy is different for each person, and that we all get to choose how that advocacy looks. Some people like myself,
Andrew Goss (00:47.807)
What's up?
you
Kristi McVee (00:55.02)
my advocacy journey is different to the type of advocacy other people do, which might be legislative change or whatever. And the cool thing about Andrew is he's now working on advocating for other victims survivors of abuse. And I'm so grateful, Andrew, for you being here and just giving your time today. So thank you.
Andrew Goss (01:18.017)
I really appreciate the opportunity to have already spoken with you quite a lot and that also the opportunity to come in today and
and talk some more and share what I hope is some useful information for people and important information and my story.
Kristi McVee (01:33.42)
Yeah, well the cool thing is not only your story, but now what you're doing with your story. And that is you're starting to write a book or you've written a book and you're thinking about writing another book. And we were just saying before we pressed record how my family's all sick and unwell at the moment. My daughter's got the flu and they come to me and they're telling me about their symptoms. And I'm like, well, what have you done? What have you taken? I've got no...
Andrew Goss (01:58.809)
Thank you.
Kristi McVee (02:02.306)
I'm a bit hopeless with my own family and not everyone, but my own family, especially like there's no sympathy. Like what action have you taken? And I'm an actions person, right? So for me and for people like yourself, you know, again, advocates do, they get to choose how they advocate. And the cool thing about you as an advocate now, Andrew, is that you're deciding to use your story as a way to help others. And so I really, really appreciate that. So I guess
My first question to you is, just tell us a bit about your own journey and also what's led you to where you are now.
Andrew Goss (02:41.831)
Sure, yeah. So, from a very young age, I was introduced into what is now described as family, sexual, well, family, domestic and sexual violence. I was born to an unwedded mother and my father, biological father, before I was actually born.
And we were, I always describe us as the classic bridges out of poverty family. We were the cliched story that we hear about so often struggling to make ends meet. you know, so my mum was enamoured with a gentleman who was extremely violent. And, you know, so the first time I ever witnessed my mum being physically abused was a week after my fourth birthday.
And that was quite a horrendous thing. And it's something that stuck with me for my entire life. We had eight years of abuse and it wasn't just, as I say, her partner and the violent man, but it actually really, I guess on reflection, taught me about how people tend to, I describe it as they hunt in packs.
like for like, they attract each other and the world that we were exposed to by Mum's Choice was a very violent and a very morally corrupt world that played itself out over a period of eight years. So throughout that period I was personally exposed to
think just about every type of abuse you can think of. There was certainly, it started off for myself personally as in witnessing the physical and the psychological, a lot of coercive control, which turned into physical, which turned into sexual abuse, which turned into neglect, which, know, isolation, all the things that many of us unfortunately over time have experienced and
Andrew Goss (04:59.883)
we perhaps don't share enough. So that certainly shaped a lot of me as a person and to, know, it really, from a very young age, I developed the fight response, which was not the, I guess, the most practical way to go about life at around five or six years of age. It got me into a lot of trouble. Yeah, body defaults and mine went from a
Kristi McVee (05:23.648)
It happens a lot though. It happens a lot.
Andrew Goss (05:29.729)
from a freeze to a fight in a day. And I can actually still recall the time when it happened. so I think over the years, that continued abuse and things certainly shaped how I am now. I'm 50 and it still has very much.
Kristi McVee (05:52.844)
Hmm, an impact.
Andrew Goss (05:55.799)
impacted on me and it's been a very long journey to make sense of all of that. And you know, so from an advocacy point of view, it's...
trying for me, was a lot about I become very protective and not only just of my mum, but in females in general and other children where I thought things that didn't seem quite right. I didn't really have a filter and such, so I wasn't aware of the different levels and extremes that things could go to. And yeah, so which created a lot of problems for me early on. I think.
Kristi McVee (06:30.368)
Hmm.
Kristi McVee (06:36.578)
That's probably also part of because you don't have the language or we didn't have the language and the words and the understanding of what was happening. so anger comes out because we don't actually understand, we're frustrated, we're scared, where there's a lot of feelings under that anger and that's why behavior is like a form of language. You're trying to say something, but you couldn't.
Andrew Goss (06:45.898)
Mmm.
Andrew Goss (06:51.669)
Thank
Andrew Goss (07:00.146)
Yes. Yeah, absolutely. And I can recall so many times where I was trying to... One of the big things that I guess what I call is my monster is that he was very much the, you know, the coercive control and the rule by silence was the very thing you never spoke about. If he was to speak about what happened, then...
it was going to be a lot worse. Not that you could imagine it getting much worse, but there always seemed to be a way. And so I would use my behaviour to try and, as opposed to saying it out loud that someone hurts me, was, I behave like this, then surely someone will ask and someone will start to take notice and ask some questions, but they never did. So yeah, no, you're very right. so I think when we were speaking before, I used the term, I learnt...
Kristi McVee (07:40.674)
Yeah.
Andrew Goss (07:55.317)
street smarts really early on. It wasn't until much later on where I started to develop some book smarts and to be able to link the two together and actually understand what was happening versus just letting it happen constantly. and so from that point of view I said having experienced
Kristi McVee (08:12.696)
Yeah.
Andrew Goss (08:26.432)
such a variety and range of abuse from so many different people, it felt like there was no escape. And for me, it was very much about just going into full protective mode. And so one of the biggest things around my advocacy work, I guess, the idea of neutrality and the people that are standing by and knowing things that happen without doing anything. And as you referenced earlier, you're a doer.
Let's get on with it. What are you going to do? It's very easy for me to sit at home and make complaints about why aren't somebody doing, why aren't they doing more? We're seeing it right now with, you know, what's happened in Bondi and how come someone didn't do something before and all of that. Well, let's, you know, let's get on with it and let's where we can make a change. Yeah, yeah, that's right.
Kristi McVee (09:05.386)
Yes, everything going on in the world.
Kristi McVee (09:13.75)
Let's, let's change now. Yeah. Yeah. And, it's I mean, look, you probably understand it more than most individuals about that neutrality piece. You know, that's what you said in your original contact with me is that, you know, neutrality is actually really dangerous. Sitting, allowing things to continue when you know that they're not right is dangerous. And it harms children, it harms people who are vulnerable. And
Andrew Goss (09:36.969)
Yeah.
Andrew Goss (09:40.531)
Yes.
Kristi McVee (09:41.293)
Although your mum might not have chosen that, she didn't know what she was choosing in the time because of, she was an unwed mother, was at risk, she was vulnerable, this person preyed upon her, but there was multiple people in your life that could have probably stepped in and helped.
Andrew Goss (09:59.86)
Yeah, we had, you know, from the very first day that I saw my mum being physically attacked, I went to a neighbour for help, I found her unconscious on the floor, ran across the road, police come, ambulances come, all of those things. And it turned out, you know, to be, we were quite good at saying it was an accident and nothing, you know, and...
No one asked any questions after that. The neighbour used to see this person come and go, come and go, would see me bruised, battered, all the things, see mum bruised, battered, all the things, never said a word. Family knew that their idea was, you know, we just, our family, there's another whole thing that we can go into around, you know, we talk about those things and it doesn't happen. means it's, you know, but yeah, that's right. Yeah, let's not upset anybody. All of those sorts of things.
Kristi McVee (10:47.688)
If we don't talk about it, it's not happening.
Andrew Goss (10:54.345)
Yeah, so many people. I was obviously the most clumsiest kid in school. I always had something wrong with me and I fell over a lot, hit my face on a cupboard a lot, know, all of those things. And no one ever seemed to ask questions. I think, you know, one of the biggest things to me to come to terms with was actually the resentment and I guess it was a hatred for a long time of certain people that
knew what was happening, could have stepped in, could have made a change, but never did. Yeah.
Kristi McVee (11:30.072)
Do you think, like, I know that you're saying that you guys were groomed and coached into not saying anything because you were scared of the, you what would happen if you said something like, imagine, I mean, you you don't need to imagine because it probably happened, but you know, if you had a spoken up or your mom had a spoken up that it would have been worse. And that threat was always hanging over the top of you, right?
Andrew Goss (11:38.301)
Yes.
Andrew Goss (11:43.88)
Yes.
Andrew Goss (11:54.567)
Yes, yes.
Kristi McVee (11:55.265)
So you learn to just not say anything. And like you said, you carried bruises and you were always clumsy and you had to lie to schools, you had to lie to teachers, you had to lie to everyone. Was there ever an opportunity for your mum or you to speak up? And I guess, you know, did anyone push at all? it was kind of what or was it always wiped under the, know, swept under the rug kind of thing?
Andrew Goss (12:07.069)
Yes, yes.
Andrew Goss (12:20.82)
Yeah, there were a few opportunities through time and as I started to get a little older, my mum turned, I remember mum turning, it's about 35 or so, and we went to my grandparents' home and we were there for her birthday and she was wearing sunglasses in the middle of the evening. The birthday cake came out and I walked over knowing very well underneath that.
those sunglasses was two black eyes and a cut above her nose and took them off. And that obviously was my way of saying, hey, look at this everybody, let's have a chat about what's happening. And yeah, so that was one time. It created some conversation. It created some conversation. know, mum was very quick to be able to push that into something else. People started to go, hang on a second.
Kristi McVee (13:00.344)
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (13:06.252)
and nothing happened.
Andrew Goss (13:18.235)
an uncle and an aunt who approached the man and said, hey, if I hear you do this, then look out for you. And so, of course, that just become an incredible, you know, violent few days for us. And his way around that was to ensure that as most, you know, from a coercive control point of view, let's just cut you off from those people.
Kristi McVee (13:29.698)
Really? How did that go?
Kristi McVee (13:47.756)
Yeah. Yeah.
Andrew Goss (13:47.955)
pretty easy. We won't see them anymore. And you know, and if you do look out. And so, you know, I would raise things I had, it was a female who would abuse me at a young age. And sexually, and I would, I come out of the shower one day at home with mum and she was sitting in front of my mum's having a cup of coffee in a conversation and I
deliberately went in, got dressed, put on some shorts, put a towel around my waist and come out knowing what normally happens at her place when I come out with a towel around my waist. And I walked out thinking, well, this might be a chance if this is what's normally happens. And she made fun of me and I said, you're much happier to see me when I have a towel around me than any other time.
Mum just said, what's all that about? And she said, you know, he likes to play games. And Mum asked a couple of more questions and people are so good at it. They've got their protective story already. yeah, yeah. I was like, yeah, was every time it was always, again, another time I had an uncle who I was staying with my
Kristi McVee (14:54.71)
Yep, discrediting kids.
Andrew Goss (15:10.066)
My mum's sister, she was married to this guy and I was sleeping in my cousin's bunk and I woke up in the middle of the night and he had his hand on my belly and he was rubbing my head and kissed me on the forehead and that freaked me out. In the time of experience of sexual abuse, it had only been females, which is quite unusual, I guess, for some people. I really was like, and this person was such a horrible man.
Kristi McVee (15:31.639)
Yeah.
Andrew Goss (15:38.258)
I actually said to my aunt the next day, you please tell Martin Cool that I'm sleeping in others bed and he's on the different bunk. And she's like, what's wrong with you? I said, well, I woke up last night and he was kissing me on the forehead and I felt very uncomfortable. She told me, be stupid. It was just, he must've made a mistake. And that happened to several times. And in the end, was just, know, but no one wanted to talk to How dare you? If you say those things, do you realize what can happen?
It was always the discrediting of anything and it was not to be believed. You're making up stories, you want attention. Yeah, and so you got to a point where you just didn't bother. really, the walls kept closing in and you never felt as though anyone would believe what you said. And if I do say it, I'm only going to get into more trouble and look what happened last time. Not only do you get yelled and screamed at, you get a...
Kristi McVee (16:14.028)
dismissing you.
Kristi McVee (16:24.974)
Of course, yeah.
Kristi McVee (16:30.359)
Yeah.
Andrew Goss (16:34.127)
black eye for your trouble or you get locked in your room for four days and without, you know, food and water and all of those types, whatever come about, you know, so that was the thing that was, yeah, the constant, no matter how you tried and the things that you said, people knew about it. And it was like, if they would, you know, I would sometimes say something to, and ask me a question and I'd say, you know, yeah, I was,
I got punched and then it was turned out, one of the kids in the playground or he's, they were playing, yeah, the kids were playing in the backyard and they just, an air and elbow, all of that stuff, playing footy, playing whatever. It was always an excuse and people always bought the story. Yeah, they were happy with it.
Kristi McVee (17:10.776)
that make up a lie.
Kristi McVee (17:15.414)
Well, it got a bit rough.
Kristi McVee (17:19.853)
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (17:28.01)
Do you think that that I mean, I want to touch on the some of the sexual abuse from the female perspective, because it's not it's not something we talk about. But I also wanted to just say on what you just said, do you think that they knew but they were too uncomfortable to say something or to push it? Because I think that that's part of I think a lot of people have been taught to just be quiet, right? And they've taught to not then we've been taught not to challenge and we've been taught you're seen and not heard from a very young age.
Andrew Goss (17:43.653)
Yeah.
Andrew Goss (17:49.754)
Yes.
Kristi McVee (17:56.439)
And so when we become adults, of course we don't challenge people because our whole life we've been conditioned not to talk. We've been conditioned not to challenge. Our parents haven't allowed us to have a say. know, I might not have been abused and neglected to the extent that you were psychologically, physically. But, you know, the language my parents used is children are seen and not heard. You must respect your adults. know, parents or adults come first.
Andrew Goss (17:56.506)
Yes.
Andrew Goss (18:04.4)
completely.
Andrew Goss (18:10.168)
in some way.
Andrew Goss (18:20.207)
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (18:25.698)
don't lie, know, like you, you know, the boy who cried wolf, all of those kinds of things, right? So that's your internal dialogue. And that's what you believe even when you become an adult, because it doesn't matter that you've grown up, you're still running from that system of a child that you were suppressed and repressed in. So I think, you know, like I've...
Andrew Goss (18:32.176)
Are you? Yeah.
Andrew Goss (18:44.346)
Yeah.
Yes.
Kristi McVee (18:50.604)
with a little bit of compassion and empathy, not a lot, but a little bit. I think that's why people don't speak up as well.
Andrew Goss (18:56.936)
Absolutely. And I've actually, you know, gone about making some fairly strong inquiries with particular individuals who I knew knew what was happening and understanding why. And it, you know, I certainly didn't coin the phrases, but I always say silence has a lot to say. And people, people only care about shit.
Kristi McVee (19:21.966)
good phrase.
Andrew Goss (19:26.468)
when shit is happening to Outside of that, you know, if it's not affecting my life, then why should I get involved? Because if you get into shit, you get shit on you. Sorry. That's just, know, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Kristi McVee (19:28.406)
True, very true.
Kristi McVee (19:37.863)
And no, it's the truth. It's the truth. Yeah, if you get involved in shit, you get shit on you. you know, like I have and again, advocacy work can do that to you as well, right? You're helping people with their personal cases. And the thing about, like I've said to you, the thing about advocacy is that you get to choose what type of advocacy.
Andrew Goss (19:50.349)
Yes.
Kristi McVee (20:02.53)
whether it's being in the trenches with people helping them through their cases, but that can be re-traumatizing and that can be, and you can get shit on you for helping. And I've seen quite a few advocates get, that's happened to them. So when you become an advocate or when you're advocating for others, personally, my choice is to help people advocate for themselves, to lift them up. I can't make Andrew or Kristi or whoever go and do the next thing. All I can say is,
Andrew Goss (20:05.301)
you can look at the next three decades. So that could be a home for us.
Andrew Goss (20:12.244)
Thank you.
Andrew Goss (20:25.303)
Yes.
Kristi McVee (20:32.034)
look, these are your rights, your responsibilities. This is what you should, could do. This is what you should do. But at the end of the day, it's your choice. And I think sometimes advocacy can get, or advocates can get trapped into that place. And when we did speak about advocacy, I was like, you choose which way you go. This is your decision. This is your life. This is your, you know, your journey.
Andrew Goss (20:52.847)
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And I had to learn that lesson, Chris, to the hard way. And when I was younger, people would load the gun and I would fire the bullets happily like I was ready to go. And the amount of things I become involved in, trouble I was caught up in, opportunities lost, impacts.
on me for fighting someone else's fight. I'm just purely on, they understood how I was built and they knew if they wound me up and set me off, off I'd go. And, you know, I had to learn that as far as now very much my focus is on, I can only control me outside of that, it's everyone else and your advice, you know, is exactly, exactly that. And it really, you know, when a conversation got me going away, really thinking, and that's what, you know, mentioned about.
Kristi McVee (21:25.283)
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (21:39.171)
Yeah.
Andrew Goss (21:51.147)
writing my first book. It's very different, a different field, but the same as far as I've written a book about dealing with the comcare process for a Commonwealth government employee in psychological injury. Very different in the world of family and domestic violence, but the same principles.
Kristi McVee (22:14.872)
Yeah.
Andrew Goss (22:15.692)
It's a messy process. It's a big beast. It's a machine. Once you get in the hamster wheel, you can't get off it. They control the narrative. They've been self-insured and people need support, but they also need a point where they can stand against the beast. But if you don't know where to start, it's almost impossible. And, mm, it is.
Kristi McVee (22:33.71)
Hmm.
Kristi McVee (22:38.146)
And it also feels impossible. I speak to lot of parents who are stuck in the family domestic violence hamster wheel or in the family court hamster wheel. And because they don't have the right advice or they don't have any advice, it's like literally the court saying, here, file this paperwork and come to a trial or a hearing. And they don't know their rights. They don't know what they're meant to do. They're not sure what...
Andrew Goss (22:46.456)
Yeah.
Andrew Goss (22:57.772)
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (23:04.31)
documentation they should have, they're not even sure who can give evidence in family court. Like all of this stuff is like completely necessary if they want to fight any kind of custody, but then they're not being given it. And so a lot of the time, or it's not easily available or everyone learns differently. Personally, I can't look at a website and read it all. I have to have it in dot point form, small chunks.
Andrew Goss (23:16.717)
Yes.
Andrew Goss (23:29.739)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Kristi McVee (23:30.26)
that way I can process it all and I know that from writing my own book actually funny enough like I learned how I learn right. But yeah I just think that a lot of people don't have this information and having a book like your book is amazing and quite frankly I think wow like if you can teach that in that sector like how can you teach it in a lot of different places.
Andrew Goss (23:50.861)
Yeah, yeah, and for me it was, I guess, a fairly safe way to start to look at how I may do my advocacy more, more pointedly, I guess, because it was a reasonably safe process. I've done so much research. I know the system I work in, you know, that my profession is from a HR background. I understand.
Kristi McVee (24:13.038)
Hmm.
Andrew Goss (24:18.935)
policy, legislation, law, and so to be able to, I guess, start in that area and realise the impact that, you you have a psychological injury, for example, you're a mess already, but here you go, take on the beast. It's with endless resources, know, thousands of pieces of legislation and policy, internal, external.
Kristi McVee (24:20.973)
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (24:32.174)
Mm.
Kristi McVee (24:39.022)
You
Andrew Goss (24:45.332)
And here's a few links off you go, fill out these forms, do all, and no one's got a clue. Where do I even start? And so when we look into, I said moving into where my real passion is around the child's safety and the domestic violence stuff is, think that's where I'm moving into. my, so my next challenge is to take on and really start to look at how do we become better at that and having.
information readily available, guide. So you go into family court, what happens? This is the things you need to know. Yeah. How do we...
Kristi McVee (25:18.998)
Yeah. What do you need? Yeah. And one of the how do you just how do you do it so that you're not going to be swept into the beast with them? Because I know so just recently and I hope you don't mind me sharing this bit, but my own experience with my PTSD. So PTSD left the place with PTSD was very much triggered and come and when I left, I was very triggered and very reactive in the process. I
Andrew Goss (25:28.608)
Yes, yeah.
Kristi McVee (25:48.705)
resigned and left within three months. Like I resigned, gave my notice, I left three months later. It was a long sort of drawn out process. Anyway, what actually happened with me and again, I'm caught up in this beast process. I've got a psychological injury from the police and I was offered no support and I don't talk about this very often. I was because it
I don't talk about it often because I didn't feel like it helped my advocacy work in childhood abuse. So I've just left it kind of out there, but we're talking about it. I left the police, but before I left the police, two days before I left the police, I spoke to someone and my doctor had been writing notes about my anxiety, about my depression, about my PTSD. She'd been writing notes when I saw her and stuff like that. And I didn't ask her to do it, but she did it for me.
Andrew Goss (26:22.44)
Yeah. That might.
Kristi McVee (26:39.746)
And then what happened was, is two days before I was due to finish, I was speaking to a colleague and they said to me, have you put in an incident report for your PTSD? And I said, what? What do you mean? And the police knew I was leaving with PTSD, right? No one had told me I hadn't had a call with health and welfare. No one had touched base with me, nothing. And I said, no, I haven't. And he said, one word of advice, go and put in an incident report. And so I went back to my desk and I found the portal.
Andrew Goss (26:52.908)
you
Kristi McVee (27:08.578)
I didn't even know about it, where I could put in an injury and put in my injury as a, and this was two days before I finished. And so I did that left, had been paying for psychologists, paying for everything. mean, there's no, in Western Australia, there's no workers compensation for police. So we basically, once you quit and retire, you're on your own. And then recently, it's, yeah. Yeah. And so just recently, my husband, like,
Andrew Goss (27:18.091)
Thank you.
Andrew Goss (27:29.299)
That is incredible, sorry to interrupt but that's unfathomable, yeah.
Kristi McVee (27:38.975)
read something and I don't know how it came about but he read something and he forwarded it to me and he said they've just recently changed the legislation in Western Australia around claiming compensation from the police for psychological injury for PTSD and that the burden of proof has now changed from the officer having to prove that they got it to the police now having to prove that they didn't. And so he sent it to me and you know what happened?
Andrew Goss (27:55.211)
Thank you.
So you didn't.
and say, hey, you know what, I'm really screwed up. Yeah, no, for sure. Yes. Yeah, yeah.
Kristi McVee (28:07.31)
and I'm nearly six years out, I had a massive PTSD breakdown.
For days, for days I was like, I think I'm still coming out of it. Like I couldn't talk about it. Like my husband was like completely in shock. He goes, you haven't like reacted like this in such a long time. And I said, the idea of putting my case towards the police and having them judge me, like that was like so overwhelming and my body shut down. couldn't talk. was like.
Andrew Goss (28:18.699)
Hmm?
Kristi McVee (28:38.368)
I was a mess for days. so I thought, you know, and so imagine parents or people who were going through the domestic violence system or the family court system and they're still being triggered and they haven't been able to get away from what's what's caused their psychological injury and trying to navigate that.
Andrew Goss (28:39.73)
Yeah, yeah.
Andrew Goss (28:54.25)
Yes. Yeah, exactly. And look, I certainly understand how you feel when you said that amount of time after, and it's just like going back to day one. And the system's designed to do that to you. It really is, know, and it's how it goes. It's like, okay, let's make you revisit again. This story that's incredibly uncomfortable, your experiences that have
Kristi McVee (29:10.433)
Yeah.
Andrew Goss (29:23.339)
cause such harm and trauma, tell me again, all about it, because I don't believe you. It's that or it's simply just, well, you've told them, but you need to tell me what's gonna be different this time, how do we catch you out? The system itself is, yeah. And when you say with domestic violence, sorts of things, you've got someone in potentially the most horrific time of their
Kristi McVee (29:35.02)
Exactly.
Kristi McVee (29:40.79)
It's designed for it.
Andrew Goss (29:52.254)
of their lives. just, you know, if they have, you know, yeah, escaped or they're right in the midst of an absolute terror. And the first thing is, you know, let's go back to it. Tell me all about it. What happened? How do we do it? Make it. And then you'll basically got, as you said, the burden of proof is a horrific thing. And, you know, you now have said this person's done something. You've got to prove that.
Kristi McVee (29:54.638)
Thanks.
Andrew Goss (30:20.148)
come, you know, and that's just, yeah.
Kristi McVee (30:22.478)
And in a lot of cases, especially when I, you know, and people say things like, and I'm imagining that your family, when you confronted them, like, we didn't know, and no, you never said, when we asked you, you never told us. And you're like, yeah, but do you even understand, like, the trauma and the bullshit and the threats and the death threats and the fricking, the abuse that I've undergone? And the fact is, is sometimes it's easier to stay in the abuse than actually try and leave it. Like, people don't understand that.
Andrew Goss (30:32.016)
Very much so. Yeah, yeah.
Andrew Goss (30:49.322)
Yeah. Yeah. very much so. And I mean, I was at the point where I did everything I could to please this person. was I was doing everything I was told to do. And if I just do this little bit better, then maybe today will be OK. And when I when I sat down and had those conversations with people, I say, you know, what do you think was happening?
Kristi McVee (30:52.566)
or they use that against you.
Andrew Goss (31:18.665)
And when I asked you about or I asked my uncle if I was to buy this shotgun at somebody, where would be the best place? Now, is that a normal question for a seven year old? Like maybe not. I I grew up in separate side of the family in a small country town, which were hunting and fishing and all of those things.
Kristi McVee (31:44.621)
Yeah, rural.
Andrew Goss (31:48.106)
to switch from, you know, if I was to aim this at somebody and pull the trigger, where would be the best spot? You know, when I think back on those things, go, oh, you know, red flag, red flag, you know, maybe ask a question. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So, you know, and there was so many times where, you know, like, how long before, I can remember,
Kristi McVee (31:56.002)
illness.
That's a red flag. My seven year olds are like usually talking about killing people.
Andrew Goss (32:16.989)
I learned Jiu Jitsu really early. started to learn to defend myself from about six years of age. And I have this terrible fear even to today. And I have to tell friends and family and a partner, please don't ever grab me around the throat. It sets me off and just talk about it, you get a bit, So you tell those people, but so you start learning.
Kristi McVee (32:23.342)
Mmm.
Kristi McVee (32:37.262)
triggering.
Kristi McVee (32:41.539)
Yeah.
Andrew Goss (32:45.501)
Jiu-Jitsu and someone grabs me around the throat. And the next thing I'm in just full throttle and you know, and it's like, hang on, haven't taught you any of this stuff yet. What's all this about? There's no punching here. What are you doing? And you know, and I would say to people, I can't be grabbed around the throat. People grab me around the throat and I don't wake up. And it's like, you'd ask those people, I told you this was happening. Did that not ever, you know, like what made you think?
Kristi McVee (32:47.534)
to the arm around your throat.
Kristi McVee (32:52.6)
Yeah, red mist.
Kristi McVee (32:59.501)
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (33:12.334)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Andrew Goss (33:15.465)
Why do you leave the room whenever someone arrives? And they'd say, you used to do some strange things when you were young. we'd often, it's like, why didn't you ever ask me? It's like, well, yeah, Never, yeah, you know, yeah. yeah, there's so, yeah.
Kristi McVee (33:28.096)
why they did that. It's crazy. Hey, it's just so crazy. And I mean, your story as I mean, it you know, you've been through all the different forms of abuse, all five, six of them, like there's multiple forms of, you know, experiences. But it sounds to me like you've been through every one of them. And I know you have. And the fact is, is that it's just so many people were neutral, and they didn't
take that little step further to just help. I wanted to touch on the female offending side because I know a lot of my listeners, haven't talked a lot about this stuff and I don't wanna go into depth with it, but I just wanted to get your experience as in how they worked, do they work differently to the male offending that you saw or, and also,
Andrew Goss (34:11.176)
Yes. Yeah.
Kristi McVee (34:26.848)
In my experience, female offenders can be quite conniving, but also quite spiteful and vindictive and sadistic. But that's my experience. I want to hear about yours.
Andrew Goss (34:41.043)
Those points are from my own personal experiences and reflecting back on them very much, and I saw. And when you talk about female male perpetrators in that sense, it's a crossover that I experienced that very, very different as well. the thing, so the first time that I was ever sexually abused,
I was five and it was a friend of my mum's who was, I guess, you as I say, like for like, it's a certain group of people, single mums, young children, you know, many of them with some addictions, know, drinking too much, smoking too much, miserable, down on their luck, all of those things, but you know, feeling the world owes them a favour. so the very first time was,
I was left in the care of this particular person and it was, let's play a game. And the game was for me to use a sex toy on her. And it was like, the game was to be, let's see if we can make me laugh. And away we went and then it become, okay, so now you're going to use your mouth. And then it would become, you know, and these things are vituated but
The way in which it worked was this person was also very spiteful and vindictive and I was worthless. I was the reason all the trouble was happening. If I wasn't about mum would be much happier. She would tell me these things constantly. So I wanted to so much, I just wanted someone to notice that I was there and care for me and make people happy. If I did that, then maybe something would. And so this person used that to
show me that you're worth something, I bet you can't do this. And it was like, you know, so, yeah. And they, like, you know, these people in particular, and not to, you know, hopefully not offend anyone, but on reflection, low socioeconomic area, low intelligence, but street smart and smart enough to, you know, it doesn't take a lot to manipulate a child, unfortunately.
Kristi McVee (36:40.054)
Yeah, yeah. It's the psychological side.
Kristi McVee (37:03.97)
No, you're wrong.
Andrew Goss (37:04.613)
And when people have the best burglars, whatever, they're good at what they do. And yeah, and so there was a lot of that. So the similarity was the, you know, it's between you and me. It's our special thing. You mean something to me and I want to just keep that between us. Others wouldn't understand. Similar to very much to it from a male perspective and the bits that go there.
Kristi McVee (37:11.384)
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (37:30.477)
Yep.
Andrew Goss (37:32.401)
But the thing between, I guess, as a young male, as I got a little bit older also, but, you know, sex feels good. You know? So, and to, like, I didn't have any clue as to what was actually happening. And then all of a sudden it's like, that feels good. You know? And so, you know, I'm a heterosexual male. You see a female. you know, as a first time I see a...
Kristi McVee (37:40.459)
Yeah, exactly.
Kristi McVee (37:49.25)
Yeah, yeah.
Andrew Goss (37:59.702)
naked female as a five-year-old and then all of a sudden it becomes so normalized. And it's different people and it's like that's what my idea if someone's like you know I had female friends a bit older than me or around the same age when they said we're gonna have let's play I was like okay I know what that means hang on you wanted to go outside and ride a bike no that's not how we play. Very much so yeah very much so yeah and
Kristi McVee (38:04.013)
Mmm.
Kristi McVee (38:19.34)
Yeah, were you displaying sexualized behaviors with other kids back then? Yeah. Yeah, and this is how easy and this is what like people really, why we need to ask questions and like, you know, like, if a child is displaying sexualized behavior at an age that's inappropriate for that age, you know, it's what if we don't, if we don't ask questions.
Andrew Goss (38:43.344)
Yes.
Kristi McVee (38:49.142)
it just continues to compound and other children get affected and other children get harmed. But also, like how confusing was that for you?
Andrew Goss (39:01.086)
said when a female friend would say, we're going to play the tab, let's go and play. was like, okay, play for me is you know, we get on the bed and you tell me what to do. You know, and I'll make you happy. And that was, you know, yeah, that was my whole idea of what play meant between a boy and a girl. You know, and it was
Kristi McVee (39:15.084)
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (39:28.544)
Yeah, exactly. And so it's so unfair to you. Because that was never that's not what you know, that's that was unfair because this person took your vulnerability and your low self esteem and your need to please and turned it against you.
Andrew Goss (39:32.548)
Yeah.
Andrew Goss (39:43.385)
Yes. Yeah, absolutely. And even that, though, is again is another example of the people not wanting to become involved. you know, as a friend of mine said, well, hang on. And I was mortified that what do you mean? Isn't this what we do? you know, her father's been asking me questions and I'm explaining, hang on. But when I'm staying at this person's place, this is what happens. It's like, you know,
Is that again, red flag, nothing. And that's when you look back and you go like, you know, that's not what we do here versus that's not what we do. That's not normal. You know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's.
Kristi McVee (40:20.28)
That's not what we do, full stop the end. Adults don't do that to children, children don't do that to other children. Like that is not okay. if, you know, and that's the, that's the real, the thing about what I'm trying to create with my, you know, education is that the minute someone steps in and breaks that behavior, that cycle, that it changes the world.
Andrew Goss (40:27.597)
No, that's right. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.
Andrew Goss (40:39.459)
Yes.
Andrew Goss (40:45.188)
Yeah, yeah.
Kristi McVee (40:48.138)
It changes that family. changes the rest. And what I'm really intrigued by is you mentioned about the fact that these people all like hunting packs. Did you did all of these people sort of know each other and like you're in a small town, right? So they knew each other. Did they know what they were they're all doing? Like, gosh.
Andrew Goss (40:48.612)
Absolutely.
Andrew Goss (41:03.396)
Yeah, yeah. Mm-hmm. It was, it was like my, I guess the most...
That's the biggest, I guess, let's just call it, was, I was like a party favor. You know, at one point I was left in the care of a person who told someone else that, you know, if you're feeling a little bit down or flat, is, you know, he's really good at making you feel better. three people, three females on the sofa in the lounge room had too much to drink, okay.
dance puppet, you know, that's basically what it was like. So, it's, yeah, and that's, you know, that was just normal. that was, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, no, no, no, no, but that's what I mean when I look back on that and go, whoa. Yeah, yeah.
Kristi McVee (41:47.896)
I'm so sorry. That is bullshit.
Kristi McVee (41:53.994)
No, well that was your normal but it's not normal.
Kristi McVee (42:02.444)
No wonder you were such an angry, no wonder you were an angry kid because you had people like using and abusing you outside of the home because that and they were meant to be safe. Then you had your own home life, which was unsafe and your mum and you were victims of this massive abuse. You had uncles trying to harm you and harming you and like all of these people around you. What I'm amazed you were even like able to trust anyone because everyone around you from the age of such a little age has
Andrew Goss (42:09.038)
Yeah, you know.
Thank
Andrew Goss (42:15.972)
Come on.
Andrew Goss (42:29.284)
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (42:31.202)
basically abused you in some way, chef.
Andrew Goss (42:33.156)
Yeah. I trust is a gain. I value trust with my life. There's very few people. you know, out of me writing, know, reclaiming your power around the ComCare system is very much when you... My advocacy is about people who have power and misuse it. I have had my entire life a loathing of bullies. I, you know...
Kristi McVee (43:00.056)
Yeah, me too.
Andrew Goss (43:02.084)
For so many years, I've always looked at someone's ulterior motive. What do you want from me? How are you playing? What's your end game? you know, my pop had a creed of be kind, be useful and take no shit. And I've tried to live by that. you know, people like I'm kind, I have to be useful and I don't take any shit.
and people get very uncomfortable with the take my shit bit. And yeah, and I don't trust people easily at all and people let you down. another thing my grandfather said was always people will soon show you who they are. You don't listen, you watch because we all have, we can all speak words. Words mean nothing at the end of the day, without the action behind it. It's so cliched, but it's so true.
Kristi McVee (43:47.062)
Mmm, yeah.
Kristi McVee (43:59.789)
Yeah, well, I think if I think to finish up our conversation, I think the best thing that we could do right now is go through some of those behaviors to watch out for both from male and females. You've already listed some and to identify and help people understand just how quickly you can disrupt.
Andrew Goss (44:00.864)
You know, you it? Yeah.
Kristi McVee (44:19.478)
something because I'd imagine if someone had approached you a little bit more and asked a few more questions and just sat with you and explained to you that these things were wrong, you probably would have been able to like completely disrupt it. But also, then this is what I've said multiple times, you know, as parents, like you said very early on in this podcast, that most people only give a shit about themselves and what's in it for them. And that's how we are as generally as humans when it comes to this stuff.
Andrew Goss (44:27.831)
Yes.
Andrew Goss (44:42.944)
Yes.
Kristi McVee (44:47.776)
or to anything really. I think so for me personally, when I talk about how we protect our kids, well, focus on your own kids, focus on your own community, focus on your little world, right? And you can actually stop someone from harming another child by just pulling, like calling it out when you see it. They move on to the next child. Sadly, most of them, if they're harming kids en masse, which they do at times, they're going to move on to the next family, next child, but at least it stops it.
Andrew Goss (44:49.206)
Yes, yes.
Andrew Goss (44:58.529)
Yes.
Andrew Goss (45:06.294)
Yes.
Andrew Goss (45:11.648)
Yeah. Yeah.
Kristi McVee (45:16.334)
from your side if there's no abuse that you are aware of. So is there anything you can share in regards to like, you've already pointed out a whole heap, but like the warning signs that were really, I mean, they discredit kids, et cetera. So let's go through some of those and like give parents and adults some ideas on what to watch out.
Andrew Goss (45:36.576)
Yeah, I think if we step it right back...
Talk to your children about the important things, boundaries, what's safe, what's not. Really encourage kids to talk about that stuff and know what's the difference between fun and wrong. And that's a starting point. And listen to your children. Never, ever dismiss what they say.
Kristi McVee (46:02.21)
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (46:08.376)
Yeah.
Andrew Goss (46:08.77)
because you're exactly right. If you give them another five minutes, something's coming. The behaviours to watch out for, changes in the behaviour. If your child all of a sudden starts doing something different, ask questions, as opposed to yelling and telling them to stop. What makes you think that's okay? What are you doing? Why did you do this today? How come you've changed? What have you done? And under this, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Kristi McVee (46:35.798)
or what's happened, what's happened to you.
Andrew Goss (46:38.722)
Absolutely, like understand, you know, and allow a child to speak to you. If you've all of a sudden got, you know, people in your life, adults around that are behaving in an unusual way, wanting to spend a lot of time offering to do things with the kids, all of those things, watch out for that stuff, ask questions. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like, look, no trouble.
Kristi McVee (47:03.32)
Did that happen to you?
Andrew Goss (47:08.097)
such a pleasure to look after, send him over. Or the kids are asking for him to come over and play and the kids weren't there half the time. All of those weird things, yes, off you go. We're in a different world now, 45 years ago to all of that. still, it's such a, look, let me do this for you. Oh, absolutely. How often do we hear about, we drop off our children at places that
Kristi McVee (47:21.549)
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (47:25.464)
but it's still possible for those things.
Andrew Goss (47:36.821)
They go to someone's school that they've never met before. You little bit of a check. Understand who your children are spending time with. If you're seeing something strange on the street, you know, there's nothing wrong with saying to a little person, hey, how are you? Is everything okay? Are you happy? You know, or as I often will say to certain dads or people I see going, yeah, why are you having such a bad day? What's happened?
Kristi McVee (47:39.544)
Correct.
Andrew Goss (48:05.633)
And just know, and all that is is saying, I'm watching you. You know, I'm not, yeah, I know you're there, you know, and I don't like what you've done, you know, and you hear about certain things, you call people, know, we can call people out on their shit without getting their shit on us so much if that's what we're afraid of. Yeah.
Kristi McVee (48:08.716)
Yeah, I see you. Yeah.
Kristi McVee (48:23.564)
Yeah, I actually saw a video online and I mean, it's similar but not the same. So there was this video online of this person filming another adult at a park and he was getting the child to do something. And this adult confronted this adult male and said, is that your child? And because this child was doing something for this adult and he said, is that your child? And he said, no. And he goes, well, why is that child doing that? And he said, he's just helping me out.
Andrew Goss (48:35.261)
Mm-hmm. Yep.
Kristi McVee (48:52.878)
And it was grooming 101. This guy was trying to groom this kid into doing something for him and he was filming him do it. And so this adult confronted this other adult male and said, don't, and then told this kid like, hey, where's your parents or where is your family or where's your whatever? He'd moved him away from it. So he must've been watching them for a while. And see, you know, like it might seem really uncomfortable and unreasonable to do something like that, but it's more than, in my world, it's more than reasonable.
Andrew Goss (48:58.046)
Yeah. Yeah.
Kristi McVee (49:21.77)
And as a parent, if someone did that for my child, I'd be like, thank you. Thank you for seeing that. Thank you for doing that.
Andrew Goss (49:26.026)
Yeah. Yeah, and a similar experience in Melbourne a little while ago now. watched a gentleman with a... The two was a little boy and a little girl. They would have been around three or four. Two little Asian children and, you know, a white male in his probably late 50s, early 60s, taking photos of them in the...
Kristi McVee (49:54.924)
see the dad.
Andrew Goss (49:55.808)
in Little Burke Street. And this was a very pleasant sunny day and all of a sudden, you know, he'd take photos, turn around, smile, walk away, took over your shoulder and I'm thinking, what is happening here? Anyway, yeah. And I was like, you know, he's using his phone. There's no lights, there's no things. This would be weird. Anyway, yeah. So I walked over and just had a look for a second and I said, what's happening here?
Kristi McVee (50:06.414)
without having a farder shirt.
Andrew Goss (50:21.042)
And it looks like you're having a bit of fun. And the guy just put his phone straight in his pocket and said, I'm just trying to keep these two occupied while their mother's off getting her nails done. And I was like, where's their mum? she's just over here getting their nails done. And I said, how come you're not over here with your mum getting your nails done to the little girl? And she said, we're just being told to stand across the street for a little while and we're having ice cream.
And I was like, and the guy, by the time I'd done that, the guy had gone. So, and so that was for me, it was like, yeah, it doesn't take much to ask a question. I just walked, was sitting, so, and mum could see directly across the street, but you know, not paying a lot of attention. And it turned out they had an older sister with them who was too busy on her phone to worry about what the two little ones were doing. So they were off. And it was so, so simple like that. Yeah. And I've had plenty.
Kristi McVee (50:54.478)
wow!
Kristi McVee (51:15.896)
Wow, so quick. I wonder, I wonder if he's, yeah, yeah.
Andrew Goss (51:21.235)
I've had plenty of time for it's been dad or mum or whatever, but this was just one of those ones where I've just gone, my God. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Kristi McVee (51:27.512)
you've asked a good you've asked a pretty simple, what's happening? This looks like fun. You're like making a very genuine, like, inquiry that anyone could ask that. But you know, what's going through my mind from what I know about predators is that he was trying to move them away from their safe people. So that he was getting them further and further away from where they were saying where they could be seen. So the next step would have been getting them down an alleyway and doing something. I think you interrupted that.
Andrew Goss (51:35.401)
Yeah. Yes.
Andrew Goss (51:44.415)
Absolutely.
Andrew Goss (51:55.027)
Yes, absolutely. Yeah. And that was just, yeah.
Kristi McVee (51:59.134)
Well, that's just that's just fucking wild. That's fucking wild. And we know and your experience with child sexual abuse and abuse is that it's mostly in the home, but there's still these people around, right? That they have there's less than 10 % of it, but they're opportunists. Exactly. So you've finished. So you finished writing Reclaiming Your Power and you're getting like editing, doing all of that at the moment. Is that right?
Andrew Goss (52:13.351)
tunists.
Andrew Goss (52:23.304)
Yes, yeah, so it's going through the final stages of that, which has been really interesting and learning. Absolutely, thank you, it has.
Kristi McVee (52:26.542)
That's so exciting. I know. I mean, me writing a book and I'm writing another one at the moment, I know what it's like. That whole process is like giving birth to a child, mate. It's just, it's like this whole world and you know, so I'm really proud of you for taking what you've been through and helping others with it. Like I said, we're action people. Let's find a way to help others.
Andrew Goss (52:37.928)
Yeah.
Andrew Goss (52:43.304)
Thank you.
Andrew Goss (52:50.12)
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (52:50.262)
So how do people find out more about any of that stuff? Have you got to the point of like making a page or like creating anything in that?
Andrew Goss (52:57.566)
I'm just in the process, honestly. As I said, it's taken me quite a while to get to where, you know, how am going to do this and what can make a difference? And so, I'll certainly, you know, be working my way towards that. And I've just started research on telling my story in the second book. And I'm learning about my family and my grandparents, my great-grandparents. And I'm already starting to learn a lot of stuff that is like, it all makes sense really, doesn't it?
Kristi McVee (53:17.368)
That's amazing.
Kristi McVee (53:26.368)
Open some window, open some curtains, pull some curtains across and have a look behind.
Andrew Goss (53:27.39)
Yeah, I've had some very uncomfortable conversations, but it's a very worthwhile thing. I hope that, you know, I just want to encourage everyone that's got a story to tell, not to be ashamed, tell your story. is taking back your power is such an important thing. you know, if you can.
Kristi McVee (53:34.316)
I bet.
Kristi McVee (53:44.151)
Yeah.
Andrew Goss (53:52.508)
learn from others, help others, support others, but you know, most importantly, take care of yourself. you know, that's hopefully the message I want to get out to people is it's not something to be ashamed of. And it's, you know, it takes a long time for us to learn that. But hopefully, hopefully we can get there. Yeah.
Kristi McVee (53:57.731)
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (54:07.33)
Hmm, I know. I know, I know. It does take a long time sometimes. And I wish little Andrew had someone to stand up for him and, you know, to protect him or to have cut, you know, like, just, yeah, just wrapped you up in arms and said, you know, it's okay. little Andrew just needed someone to hear him and see him.
Andrew Goss (54:29.821)
Absolutely. My psychologist got me to write a letter to my younger self and I think it's a pretty common practice that a man is at heart. Yeah, if anyone is ever struggling with what their values or their purpose or any sort of trying to find meaning in life.
Kristi McVee (54:39.064)
Practice, yeah. But it's also very freeing to be able to wrap yourself in what you needed.
Andrew Goss (54:55.101)
write a letter to your four-year-old self and you'll soon have a roadmap where you can take yourself off and live a better life. Yeah. Thank you, Kristy. Thank you.
Kristi McVee (55:00.525)
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (55:04.92)
Thank you so much for sharing your story and for just, yeah, for just being strong enough to like after everything that you've been through, just to keep going and keep helping others. And I think that's your purpose. It went really at the end of the day, we go through these things to help others with what they're going through as well.
Andrew Goss (55:23.537)
Absolutely.
Kristi McVee (55:24.398)
Well, I'm going to share once you've got your book ready, we'll add it to the website so people can definitely find it. But thank you so much. And I am so grateful for you.
Andrew Goss (55:32.174)
Thank you.
Andrew Goss (55:37.639)
Thanks for listening to take care.
