Kristi McVee (00:01.922)
Thank you so much, Kimberly, for coming onto the podcast and also for sitting up late and talking to little old me in Western Australia all the way from the US. So thank you.
Kimberly King (00:13.742)
Well thank you for having me. It's only 8 p.m. so you know I'm usually up worrying until 1 in the morning so that's fine.
Kristi McVee (00:17.204)
Not too bad.
that's I know and you know, I wake up so early thinking about this stuff like it's it's crazy. I people in our in our sphere in our like career and stuff like that we can relate to each other that you know, we do actually constantly think about this topic and these topics all like different hours whilst we're with our family with something might pop in our head and we're like, I've got to talk about that. So yeah.
Kimberly King (00:46.03)
Exactly. Yeah. And there's plenty of stuff to talk about now. I I found myself in the Epstein files last night till one in the morning just reading some things. so like, I'm glad to be back on prevention tonight.
Kristi McVee (01:01.002)
Yeah, I know, I know. It's very horrendous what's been released and, and, you know, I think both you and I, you know, you're the, you're the tough topics mom and, know, and I'm over here talking about prevention as well. And we know that this kind of evil is around and it's out there on the scale. just breaks my heart. And I just think, yeah, I've been a little bit.
Kimberly King (01:17.635)
Yeah.
Kimberly King (01:21.898)
It's heartbreaking, frightening, hard to believe.
Kristi McVee (01:27.0)
Ah, totally. And I've been a little bit disassociated because of it. I think I felt like my brain sort of had a little bit of a moment. And I saw something from a psychologist about how some of us might not be coping right now. And we're like probably a little bit sort of overwhelmed and we might be disassociating. And it was kind of nice to hear that from a psychologist say, you know, it's okay because no one's meant to be able to handle this kind of stuff in this larger scale.
Kimberly King (01:52.846)
Yeah, I mean, you think that because you're a body safety educator and, you know, an expert on this topic, you probably could handle some of the things in these files. But honestly, last night, I saw something that I never even thought of, and it made me so, it made me just want to vomit. So I had to put the kibosh on it. I was trying to do a little research and, you know, thinking from a prevention stance, but it's so dark and so twisted that I just have to.
step away. So yeah.
Kristi McVee (02:23.252)
Yeah, yeah, I'm gonna have a weekend off all socials this weekend, like put my phone in a drawer and, and just have a nice weekend without it. So I think everyone and I guess let's let's go from from talking about that to what we want to talk about in regards to prevention. Because the thing is, is that you and I both work in the prevention space. And there's a reason for that, right? How did you get into this space?
Kimberly King (02:33.357)
Yes.
Kimberly King (02:49.678)
Yeah, so I, um, it's a bit of a long story, but I'll give you the short version of it. My, my son went to a sleepover at a friend's house and I was in the middle of having a new baby. And, uh, so I left my son and his sister at our neighbors. And that night I got a weird feeling something wasn't wrong, was wrong, but I kind of like talked myself out of it because it just had a baby. And I was like, um,
being paranoid, everybody's fine, you know, it's fine. I'm just being, you know, a new mom. And when I went home in the morning to pick him up, he kind of like ran out to me and jumped in my arms and said, mom, I had a red flag. Now we had talked a little bit about body safety stuff, but you know, just like if anybody touches you or your private parts, tell me like basically that was it, but we called that a red flag. So he told me about what happened and it was
kind of like over the realm of normal curiosity to the point where it made him feel very uncomfortable. So he told me. However, that telling kind of triggered a number of memories from my childhood that I had completely forgotten about and brought up some things that happened to me in college. So I had like a bit of a, like an emotional kind of like...
come to Jesus moment where I remembered some things and I realized like I needed to get some help. got a therapist and you know, then in trying to make my son feel better about it, I realized that there was really no help for somebody who had this sort of like unsafe, uncomfortable touch from a friend. There was no books about it. There, you know, nobody was teaching how to prevent it or minimize the risks or anything. And at that time, you know, we all still thought it was the
stranger in the van or, you know, I remember as being a young mom, I was obsessed with like the Elizabeth Smart case. And so I had completely turned into a safety freak, I think, because of my past that I never really dealt with until my son had this incident. So we went about journaling and I'm a teacher. we just started writing and talking through it and it got on paper and we both kind of realized that
Kimberly King (05:11.426)
you know, this was unique that we had a child's perspective talking about it. then, you know, mixed in with some real stories from my childhood and as a teacher, various things. So it just became a book. But I had to get some credentials behind me before publishing such books. So I did research, joined Darkness to Light, and really dug into the research to become a crisis counselor and
like a hotline, I'm in the hotline for a number of years and created a space for parents to communicate and ask questions via Top Topics Mom and my website and all that. So that's the long winded story, but that's how it started and it's still going because there is no shortage sadly for this topic. So.
Kristi McVee (05:59.597)
Wow. Yeah. And do you know what your experience of like having that like flashbacks, those repressed memories coming forward when something happened or even when it happens to so many parents, like they forget or their brain protects them.
Kimberly King (06:15.564)
Right, exactly. I sit here and hear all of these reports whenever a survivor comes and makes charges against someone who has abused them or hurt them or whatever. It is incredibly brave because I'm somebody who works in this space on this topic and I never even reported what happened to me. I remember I did tell my mom.
And she told me, you know, let's just forget, let's just not talk about it. You know, if you, if you tell anybody, you'll get a bad reputation. We're talking about this event that happened in college. So I ended up not telling anybody, which to this day, I'm still like, you know, how do people do it? It's definitely very hard. So.
Kristi McVee (07:03.882)
Hmm. Yeah. there's no, mean, look, you, you and I both know you've been a crisis counselor and stuff like that. Every person's journey is their own and it's their own decision whether to go forward. And sometimes it's not until we feel safe that we can speak up. And even as adults, even as adults, we don't feel safe. Yeah.
Kimberly King (07:15.97)
Yeah.
Kimberly King (07:20.366)
Exactly. Oh yeah, I know. Yeah, it's crazy. So to expect kids to tell us, think is the question of the day. And people always say, well, your book is about helping kids learn how to tell. And yes, it's very important to know body parts, body boundaries, body safety rules, making sure that parents have these conversations with their kids so that they know if anything.
strange or uncomfortable or worrisome happens, they can tell. But more cases than not, they don't tell because they're terrified. So, you know when things are happening, especially with adults, adult to child abuse, there can be manipulation, there can be threats, there can be, you know these consequences that the kids think could happen, like they could ruin their family.
The list goes on. So that's why really teaching body safety from an early age so that kids understand it and parents know how to minimize that risk I think is so critical.
Kristi McVee (08:23.03)
Yeah, that's what I realized in the police, know, interviewing kids who had been abused and getting the evidence and then investigating the cases. I just realized that by that stage, when it gets to that point, like so much damage is already done and there's not as much, you know, as much as we talk about child sexual abuse and in Australia, it's a hot topic, right?
Kimberly King (08:27.747)
Yeah.
Kimberly King (08:36.503)
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (08:45.536)
And I don't know about the US, but it's really hot over here right now. You know, we talk about it, we talk about it, we talk about it, but our services are not up to scratch for anyone. Doesn't matter what age they are.
Kimberly King (08:55.534)
I know. I think I was reading last week that something like, think it's, I don't know, hundreds of billions of dollars are spent on, you know, caring for people that have been sexually abused, like the lifetime expense. Now forget about the emotional expense, but like the trajectory of their life is different. The services they need are different. The therapy they need, it's, and to prevent it.
I guess 1 % is spent on prevention. if you think about it, if we could flip that and really focus on prevention, we would have such a better chance. And I know like I teach in a school, it's like a childcare facility with a pre-K. So just about teachers and people that have access to our children, it's really interesting. Most people here in the United States,
You know, they get some bit of sexual abuse prevention training, but there are very simple things that every like daycare and childcare and school can do to protect kids and they don't. And so I'm just like, I just don't. It's so all encompassing, but it really needs to be streamlined so that everybody can access and implement these safety strategies because they're not difficult, you know?
Kristi McVee (10:14.944)
Yeah, no, they're not. And I think from our perspective, like we know how important prevention is. Every survivor knows how important prevention is because prevention and the thing about I wrote this article on LinkedIn or like this topic on LinkedIn about prevention isn't sexy because it doesn't, no one knows that you've actually prevented anything. Like for someone like myself and yourself, you know, we talk about this, we educate people and we never really know if it's effective because if,
Kimberly King (10:22.744)
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (10:43.87)
it has worked, means no one has been harmed and there's no like there's nothing to like go and you know no there's no metrics for that right so not as
Kimberly King (10:46.947)
Yeah.
Kimberly King (10:52.546)
Yeah, there's not really a, well, there are some studies. There's one study by a researcher named Eleanor Craig who did a comprehensive evaluation of the body safety books at the time. And she analyzed them for these 10 criteria and then analyzed if they were effective. But that's a very small study. But what's really cool about this is just from being an author and having this book.
This book was originally published back in like 2008. So I have probably about 4,000 reviews on Amazon. And sometimes those people, you know, they will write in a review or they will email me and say, you know what, because we read your book, my child told me what was going on. Or because we read your book, this didn't happen. So thank you. And I also get a couple of
And this doesn't make sense, but I got an email from someone who said, you your book, your book is dangerous because my child was sexually abused and she waited a year to tell me. But she, So she told because she read the book, but she was upset because I guess, and this is part of grooming that the person said to her, well, you didn't say no. And so, you know, the book is called, I said no. So.
Kristi McVee (12:01.068)
Why is that dangerous?
Kimberly King (12:14.924)
The child thought that because she didn't say no, that that was her fault. we rewrote this book to be very clear about some of the complaints that were in the old edition. So we've covered that.
Kristi McVee (12:28.17)
Yeah, and this is the thing, I mean, you know, even myself and I'm sure you have, you know, we we constantly think about these topics, right? And we constantly think about these learnings and how to articulate them to everyone so that they can understand them. But you can't really make someone understand something that isn't ready to hear it or doesn't want to understand it. Or, you know, there's
Kimberly King (12:38.072)
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (12:52.586)
up until recently in the last 10 years maybe, we didn't have the same amount of evidence and statistics and data about it, right? And a lot of people haven't heard of fawning. We've heard of fight, flight, freeze, but we haven't heard of fawn. And like a lot of our kids will fawn when they're being abused or someone's trying to groom them or it's a natural response to save yourself, to protect yourself.
Kimberly King (13:00.344)
Right. Right.
Kimberly King (13:08.706)
Right.
Kimberly King (13:18.434)
Right, right. And it's a complicated topic to get into. And I think many people are just, they get to this point where they're like, well, that is uncomfortable and I'm not gonna talk about that right now. You know, like maybe they'll do it at school or, you know, we can talk about it when they're nine or 10. But the truth is that the earlier you talk about this, the safer your kids will be, the better the chances are that you.
make your child a very unattractive target. That's what I tell the parents that I work with. We want your child to just be the one that is not picked. So if you have these body safety skills, if you have these communication meetings with your child once a week, if you're very proactive and you're reducing the risks and you're doing all of these things, your chances of your child being chosen are lower because predators are looking for
Kristi McVee (13:49.005)
Yes.
Kimberly King (14:13.772)
you know, that child that is not gonna know about grooming. It's not gonna know about, you know, not keeping secrets, won't know anything about their body parts. They want to get away with it. But when a kid shows up all prepared and it's like, yeah, I know, I know what my penis is and I know you can't touch it. Then can you imagine that predator is gonna be like, hmm, you're probably not the best person. You know, I'm gonna move on. Sad, they will move on. But if we can try to really focus all of this early.
Kristi McVee (14:35.99)
Yeah.
Kimberly King (14:43.598)
the chances are so much better. And it becomes so much easier to talk about too, because when parents jump into this when their kids are 14 or 15, you know, like the ship is sailed. They have learned what they want to learn on YouTube and Google and chat GPT. They have the ability to access pornography. Like it's a real mess if you don't start early.
Kristi McVee (15:08.074)
Yeah. And also like teenagers, it's too late once they're a teenager, because they're gonna be like, they're not going to be engaged. They're not going to even listen to you. What do you know? Like you didn't talk to like you literally have left them the door closed and you're trying to open it when they're at a place where they don't want to listen to parents anymore.
Kimberly King (15:13.548)
Yeah.
Kimberly King (15:17.623)
Nope.
Kimberly King (15:24.291)
Yeah.
Kimberly King (15:28.78)
Yeah, they don't want to hear it from you. And it's actually like at that point, if you haven't spoken about it, it's icky. Like if you just come, if you just bring it up out of the blue and you know, they're like, mom, whatever. I, I, with my kids, I, you know, had small little safety chats with them throughout their lives. And, you know, I have a college age son who will come to me with anything at this point. Like we have, we have that relationship and I love that. And he knows if he ever needs help or has a question, he can just ask me.
And his friends joke around because my account name on Instagram is toughtopicsmom. So his friends will come in and go, toughtopicsmom. We have a question. OK, you little kids, OK. But yeah, mean, it's nice. It just makes it easier. His friends will ask me questions, There's nothing that I'm not willing to talk about. And I think if you have that kind of mindset with your kids, that
Kristi McVee (16:07.51)
I love that.
Yeah, but it's nice.
Kimberly King (16:27.842)
they can come to you with whatever and you're going to be open and honest and support them and not judge them, then they are going to come to you when things are good and when things are bad and scary. so yeah.
Kristi McVee (16:40.32)
Yeah, true. And I was just thinking about my own child. mean, that was most of my daughter's childhood. But there came a time when she was like, I don't want to hear it from you. know, Like she's nearly an adult and she's, you know, we clash because we've both got very, she's very opinionated. I'm like,
Kimberly King (16:50.583)
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (17:00.716)
Well, I've been here and I've seen this. So, And so, you know, and it's trying to navigate that. one of the things that I, I'm sure you're the same, you know, when you haven't had the, had the best of experiences trying to talk about stuff or, or there's been the energy's wrong or, know, you're, you're both heightened, you know, apologizing and repairing and saying, Hey, I didn't handle that the best way I could have, I could have handled that better. Sorry. Wasn't probably wasn't the best time to talk about it.
Kimberly King (17:03.276)
Hahaha!
Kimberly King (17:17.026)
Yeah.
Kimberly King (17:23.842)
Yeah.
Yeah, because we're not perfect. I yeah, we always have something to learn too. And I think that's the interesting thing about growing up today. If you have made that step to let your child have a cell phone or access to the internet, those are completely different conversations. it's different. It's harder to be a kid today with what they can access, what they can see. And just the constant pressure to not put that phone down.
and how it attacks their self-esteem and creates anxiety and creates depression. And then they can get into conversations with chat bots and they can ask AI about sex instead of you. And there are so many different ways that kids can access the wrong information. So yeah, it's just tough. It's very tough.
Kristi McVee (18:09.442)
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (18:13.9)
Yeah, and not to mention, know, they could be thinking they're talking to someone their same age and it's an adult and they're being groomed and they're being, you know, like sexualized through that, those interactions and the games that they play, you know, and so there's so much information.
Kimberly King (18:22.978)
Yeah.
Kimberly King (18:30.862)
Yeah, I actually had to add a new page to the I Said No book about, so we added four scenarios that are new. And one of them was like an online gaming situation where you're talking to a stranger and then also like talking to somebody on the phone that looks like a 13 year old girl, but how do you know? You know, like, and usually nine times out of 10, it's not a 13 year old girl. So like creating rules and guidance around that because kids are so trusting and naive.
Kristi McVee (18:49.73)
Yeah.
Kimberly King (19:01.184)
about people that are online, they just assume they are who they say they are.
Kristi McVee (19:06.22)
Well, because they're being themselves, right? And when you're online, this is the interesting thing about that online space is that when you're behind a screen, you can pretend to be anyone, right? So it kind of gives you this, for some kids, it probably feels very freeing to be able to pretend that you're not who you are in real life or maybe who you feel like you are in real life. And then...
Kimberly King (19:10.584)
Yeah.
Kimberly King (19:20.002)
Yeah, yeah.
Kimberly King (19:27.757)
Right.
Exactly.
Kristi McVee (19:31.094)
you're behind a screen, so you're pretending and it doesn't feel like there's any real consequences. you know, there's no one like it, there's no police online, really. So it's kind of like it gives you that false sense of security.
Kimberly King (19:37.614)
Mm.
Kimberly King (19:46.734)
Exactly. And it's very hard to even report if something is going wrong online. I went to a march this year in New York City with the Heat Initiative and we were protesting against meta because there were like 42 cases of children ending their life and there were like online grooming situations and sextortion. so when I heard
I've like actual mom stories about like how the online grooming happened and the sextortion and how, you know, their kids went to bed one night at nine o'clock and in the morning they were not alive. It's really like all hands on deck code red, you know, like we've got to really give our kids safer tools. It's a soap box I get on a lot, but I just, I think like either.
Either you wait until your children are much older or you give them a safer phone like the Bark phone or the Troomi phone or the Gabb wireless phone. I'm sure there's different phones where you are as well, but I'm considering getting a Bark phone for myself because I just, don't want to be online anymore.
Kristi McVee (20:45.27)
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (20:55.372)
Well, I know, and I don't know if you've heard of it. It's called The Brick. Have you heard of The Brick?
Kimberly King (21:00.148)
have heard of it, I was thinking about getting it.
Kristi McVee (21:02.57)
It's really well, it's really good. Like I'm tempted to write to them because I got it just before Christmas. And for the whole Christmas break, my phone was bricked. It's called brick your phone, right? And so my phone was bricked. I couldn't access like Instagram, Facebook, any of the things that like you got to choose which ones. And every time you pick it up and go to go to it and realize you can't it says get back to real life. And so I was like, okay.
Kimberly King (21:13.518)
That's great!
Kimberly King (21:21.368)
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (21:27.606)
I'll go back and do something. So, and I think, and then it became a game to me, like how long can I go for? And so, yeah, it was like, I ended up doing 26 days, I think, over the Christmas period.
Kimberly King (21:33.612)
can you go? How long can you go? Yeah.
Kimberly King (21:39.75)
my gosh, that's great. I mean, I'm feeling good that I did like two hours off my phone today. But when I teach, I have to use, you know, like computers and all of that. And then I use my phone to get home directions. But I spend like an hour online just doing research and social media and it's time wasted really, but.
Kristi McVee (21:44.342)
you
Kristi McVee (21:55.308)
Yeah.
The good thing about the brick and I don't know why I'm promoting it right now, but the good thing about it is that you can still use all of the different parts of your phone that you need to use. You just can't use social media or whatever you choose not to use.
Kimberly King (22:12.878)
That sounds like a good Christmas present for all of my children.
Kristi McVee (22:15.768)
Yeah, I highly recommend it. I should really talk about it more because for me, I should go hey, because for me, I was like, I want to use my phone for the purposes of like reading a book or because I'm fortunate. I yeah, reading a book or looking at, you know,
Kimberly King (22:20.63)
You should go call them up. Yeah.
Kimberly King (22:29.827)
Right.
Kristi McVee (22:34.366)
online websites or online shopping or whatever, but I don't want to be on Facebook. I don't want to be on Instagram. I don't want to be on TikTok, all of the things, right? So that's what I did. I turned them off. I couldn't get access and it was literally, like I said, it became a game of not being on it. So.
Kimberly King (22:48.654)
That's amazing, I'm gonna have to get one.
Kristi McVee (22:50.328)
So Tough Topics Mom say I guess did that start up like what was the purpose of starting up that handle and like really I mean you wanted to talk about body safety you wanted to talk about prevention but that's a really interesting handle handle.
Kimberly King (23:06.526)
Yeah. Yeah. So it started off as like, I Said No the name of my book, but you know, that didn't really help people find me necessarily. And so there are so many tough topics to talk about. I was just thinking, and I kept finding myself saying like, this is a tough topic, know, blah, blah, blah. So I just...
Kristi McVee (23:23.276)
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (23:28.504)
Yeah, yeah, so it became who you are.
Kimberly King (23:29.846)
look to see if it was available. I don't know that it actually tells people what I do. try to do that in the account, but I talk about sexual abuse prevention, parenting, a little bit of teaching tips. And then I wrote a book for parents that is basically for parents and teachers, how to work together and implement body safety strategies at school and at home. So I talk a little bit about that.
Kristi McVee (23:38.241)
Yeah.
Kimberly King (23:57.558)
And then I also share some of my advocacy and if I do speaking events or what have you, that's all in there too. But I just, I like it because I do my account by myself and if somebody DMs me with a question, I answer it. Like I don't have a hundred thousand followers and I'm not, you know, I'm just a little person answering little questions that people are often too scared to ask other people because it is tough. So.
Kristi McVee (24:01.781)
Mm-hmm.
Kristi McVee (24:18.23)
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (24:24.704)
Yeah, there's a lot of judgment too in the parenting space when you don't know something, right?
Kimberly King (24:31.534)
Yeah, there really is. there's all these different types of parenting styles that mix in with body safety. I I feel like I'm pretty well balanced in my approach because I I came from, my kids were raised in a military family. So their dad was authoritative and I was more like middle of the road.
kind of like balanced. And so I saw how the different parenting styles affected my kids. And so now that I'm a teacher and I'm 55 and I have these parents in my class that are younger and they have these five-year-olds, I can help them a little bit better in that space too because so many of the things we experience are common. Like my child's not listening to my no, that's one I get all the time. And that one...
Kristi McVee (25:22.253)
Yes.
Kimberly King (25:27.596)
I love to say, well, you know, this is a really important thing to teach because how you model your no and how you reinforce your no helps them understand what no means so that they can keep a boundary about themselves and their body. So like I do a little mini class on that about the power of no and how to say it, how to mean it and how not to get lawyered into a different decision and how to choose your battles. If you mean no, I think you really do have to stick to it because it teaches a valuable lesson that
Kristi McVee (25:45.528)
you
Kimberly King (25:56.888)
carries on with your children when they give their no.
Kristi McVee (26:00.129)
Yeah, I remember having battles because I grew up in a very authoritative, very strict family. And so I didn't have anyone to talk to and I didn't have anything. You couldn't speak up if you wanted to, you just know that's it.
Kimberly King (26:10.028)
Yeah, yeah.
Kimberly King (26:19.586)
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (26:20.92)
And then of course that led to me as a teenager like sneaking off and doing things when because they said no anyway like what why ask when you're gonna get no Yeah, but in saying that when my daughter came along I was always thinking about
Kimberly King (26:27.746)
Yeah, yeah.
when you're gonna get a no.
Kristi McVee (26:38.567)
I'm always willing to listen to her reasoning for why something should happen. But there's been times when I stood firm, like social media. She wasn't allowed social media until 13. And there was things like she wasn't allowed a phone until a certain age. And then she wasn't allowed to do sleepovers for some houses. then there were so many things along the line. And I just remember I felt terrible. I felt terrible inside, but...
Kimberly King (26:55.395)
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (27:04.728)
There was a little voice in my head that said, if I don't model no and stick to it, then how will she know when she needs to stand true and you know, it's got to feel safe for everyone. that did and if it helps. And so that, you know, after the car, after everyone was calm, I would explain like, this is why I would always explain the no, but it feels it's horrible when you're a parent and you don't know how to say no yourself.
Kimberly King (27:17.334)
Yeah, exactly.
Kimberly King (27:24.696)
Yeah, that's good. Yeah, it's really important.
Kimberly King (27:32.49)
It's so hard. then like, mean, my kids did not have tantrums, thank God. But we have a student who has some tantrums. And that's really challenging because you know, you're at school and you're saying, no, honey, have to let go of mommy, mommy's got to go to work. And then this fit happens. like, I feel so bad for this mom because she's embarrassed, she's been firm and like nothing works.
And I just have to say that so many people go through that and it is pretty normal. There's usually a reason for a big meltdown or a tantrum. My parents in my class, they hear all the body safety things all the time, but I'm like, you know what? If your child is avoiding a space, I'm always trying to include some of these little body safety tips.
Kristi McVee (28:03.54)
It is very.
Kimberly King (28:23.84)
in our day, like in my newsletters, not overwhelming, but just, you know, little things for them to think about.
Kristi McVee (28:31.032)
Yeah, and when I think about my own daughter, sometimes, especially around four, which is the four or five, which is what the age group you're dealing with, you know, some of it's just secure attachment and not wanting to be without their mom. Like, it's not that they don't feel safe.
Kimberly King (28:37.144)
Yeah.
Kimberly King (28:43.884)
Yeah, and that's, I know that's okay, right? Like we shouldn't, we shouldn't feel bad about that. Yeah.
Kristi McVee (28:47.884)
Yeah. My daughter was like that. My daughter was like that. She would cry when I left her and she was such a confident kid. But when my husband left her at like school or at, you know, childcare or whatever, she'd be like, see ya. And but when I took her, yeah, she'd be like, bye, have a good day. And then when I took her, she'd be crying and not wanting me to leave. And that's really like it came, it made me feel terrible. But you know, you can do those mini check ins. Is this, you know, because she doesn't feel safe? Is this because
I, you know, there's something else going on. Is she not feeling well? Or is it just because you don't feel like you don't want to be without your mom today? I think.
Kimberly King (29:24.696)
Yeah, and it can be any of those things. And all of those things.
Kristi McVee (29:27.146)
Yeah, yeah. So, and four year olds and five year olds, like they've got everything going on. But I really love that age. Yeah, they do. I love that age group though. Do you wish like, I guess, you know, your experience and sometimes I look back on my own child and I go, man, I wish I had known some of this stuff before when they were little. Like, do you ever think like that with yours?
Kimberly King (29:34.914)
They really do. They have big feelings.
Yeah, they're great.
Kimberly King (29:57.08)
Yeah, and it's interesting because the thing that happened with me when I was, I think I was five or six years old, we had a babysitter who tried to do things with my sister and I. And my mother did say something to the effect of, anybody tries to touch you, tell me. So when that babysitter, when my mom came home, that babysitter, never saw her again. I told my mom.
Kristi McVee (30:24.525)
Yeah, okay.
Kimberly King (30:24.59)
what she had tried to make us play games with our private parts, I told her and she just said, oh, that's terrible. And then we never saw her again. So that was it. But especially when I was sent off to college, completely unprepared, my mom didn't and my, nobody talked and I went to a Catholic school. So nobody talked about sex ed, sex, know, anything having to do with like, you know, your period, all of that, got nothing. So I had to figure.
Kristi McVee (30:45.09)
Mm-hmm.
Kristi McVee (30:52.546)
that's so tragic, isn't it?
Kimberly King (30:55.246)
It is, I remember a junior year in high school, I was in the bathroom with my friend trying to like coach her on how to use a pad or a tampon. Like they didn't tell us these things, our parents at that age. And the Catholic school certainly didn't either. So I went to college knowing absolutely nothing. And I also went to college not really having much experience with drinking. So when you, you you put those two things together where you don't know
Kristi McVee (31:20.812)
Yeah, combine the two.
Kimberly King (31:24.78)
you know, your drinking limit and you don't know anything about consent or sex or any of that, really a recipe for disaster. So if I could go back, you know, I wish somebody would have had some kind of conversation about that with me, but they did not. So, and then there's that here in the States, they call it like the red zone. The first three weeks of college for a freshman girl are like the highest chances of sexual abuse.
Kristi McVee (31:32.984)
100%.
Kristi McVee (31:41.719)
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (31:49.004)
you
Kimberly King (31:54.254)
So like, especially at the very beginning of school when there's tons of drinking and partying and nobody really knows each other, there's a lot of abuse that happens during that time.
Kristi McVee (32:07.282)
wow. I mean, the college experience in the US is so different to Australia. Like, we don't have the same culture and like that, you know, all the kids get sent off to school. You know, a lot of kids today in Australia, they either go, you know, into full time work or a trade or some do go to university. And I'm sure there is, and I do know that there is some risks with university in Australia and stuff. But I didn't know that about the red zone. Like, I didn't know. And it makes sense, right? Add alcohol.
Kimberly King (32:25.016)
Yeah.
Kimberly King (32:34.956)
Yes, add alcohol and drugs to the college young woman who's completely unprepared and it's a disaster. But I very quickly moved out of my dorm and into the sorority that I had joined. And then instead of really like dealing with the trauma that happened to me, I just blocked it out. It just got pushed away. And I dove into working at the
health center as a women's support specialist. So I was helping, you know, talk to women who had accidentally gotten pregnant or maybe they had an STD or, you know, some other health issues. So I was like in training as a peer counselor and working with a gynecologist and a doctor. And that is how I processed it somehow. So I just kind of found myself there and that is what I attached to.
Kristi McVee (33:25.687)
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (33:31.212)
Yeah, because that was probably because you're I can tell you've got like that inquisitive mind you want to know the why and the how and all of the things so.
Kimberly King (33:39.66)
I think so. And I figured if I was around people that had been through the same thing as me, maybe I would learn something or figure it out. But this, I went to college in 1988. So we were not talking about campus safety or prevention. That wasn't a conversation that was happening then.
Kristi McVee (33:52.438)
Yeah, right.
No.
And we didn't even talk about consent back then. You know, like there was no consent conversations and there was, you know, and women were shamed if they were abused. It was not about, so your mum's reaction is probably very typical of a parent reaction back in that day. Because, you know, it was always the girls' fault. It was always they were the ones who did the wrong thing.
Kimberly King (34:01.195)
No.
Kimberly King (34:10.84)
Yeah, at that time, yeah.
Kimberly King (34:16.11)
Yes, exactly. And she actually said to me, well, how much did you drink? I said, um, not much. Like I think one or two beers. What?
Kristi McVee (34:21.654)
Yeah, that's got nothing to do with it. Yeah, that's got nothing to do. Well, you know, like the fact that you had a drink isn't the reason why you're abused. It's because someone chose to abuse you. Yeah. So what do you do with your books now? I Said No is now available on Amazon worldwide. And and that is you've that's the updated version of your original book. Yeah. Yeah, that would be great. Yeah. Yeah.
Kimberly King (34:31.774)
Exactly. Yeah.
Kimberly King (34:45.73)
Yeah, I'm going to show it to you.
That's the new edition. It's in hardcover and it's also on Kindle, so digital download. And they're actively looking for people to buy foreign rights and translate. So it's already been translated, I think, into, no, that's my other book, Body Safety for Young Children Empowering Caring Adults. That's this book up here.
Kristi McVee (34:54.826)
Yeah, all good.
Kristi McVee (35:12.79)
Yeah.
Kimberly King (35:14.092)
That's been translated into Portuguese and working on a Spanish translation. So yeah, they're available on Amazon and basically wherever books are sold. But now the new publisher of I Said No has really done a spectacular job of organizing everything in a more common sense way. And the illustrations are very, I would almost say like trauma informed, like the colors are lighter, there's less mad angry.
faces and the online safety thing is included. And I actually did a whole new definition for what a safe adult is, because that is one thing that bugged me about the old I Said No book. I had a page where it said, you know, a safe adult is somebody who makes you feel safe in an emergency, blah, blah, blah. It might be somebody like a fireman, a policeman, a teacher. You know, I gave a list of grandma and then, you know,
Kristi McVee (35:52.045)
Yeah.
Kimberly King (36:12.054)
I said like, and I'm sure everybody knows what I meant, but when you give a child like a list of, well, my teacher's safe or, the fireman's safe, they're not necessarily safe. So I had to go back. Unfortunately, not all teachers are safe. And that's just a fact. and nobody, it doesn't matter what job they have or who they are. We just, we have to judge those people if they're safe adults by their behavior. So I went in and like,
Kristi McVee (36:24.608)
Kimberly King (36:41.39)
revamp that whole definition to be just more clear. Like a safe adult now in the book is like somebody who will help you in an emergency, is easy to talk to about tough things, would never ask you to break a body safety rule, would never ask you to keep a secret, and is just easy to access and is an adult. Because interestingly, a lot of times kids think safe adults are friends.
Kristi McVee (37:11.158)
Yes. Yes.
Kimberly King (37:11.542)
or their pets. And so it's not, you know, if you tell your friend, that's great because you're sharing and you trust that person, but that's probably not going to go anywhere. That's really not going to get you the help that you need. And obviously like your dog, I mean, I tell my dog everything, but he can't help me if I'm in distress. I mean, he tries.
Kristi McVee (37:25.58)
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (37:30.38)
No. And dogs and pets, I saw that as well when I was a child abuse detective, dogs, pets, animals are very much like when children have something that's really hard and tough to tell, they will practice it on animals and they will practice it on their friends because, and a lot of the disclosures that I had originated from like,
Kimberly King (37:45.635)
Yeah.
Kimberly King (37:49.027)
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (37:54.773)
a child telling their friend who told their parent, not actually going to their own parents and sharing it with their own parents because they obviously didn't feel safe to say something or they were scared to do it. So, you know, there is some merit in that, but most children don't know how to handle that.
Kimberly King (37:57.784)
Yeah.
Kimberly King (38:04.152)
Yeah.
Kimberly King (38:11.074)
They don't. Yeah. So you have to kind of teach them from the beginning. and also like if we, the thing that I found funny with trying to write this new book and just doing more research, when you ask a child who they're safe adults are, I have a thing I do in my class where I have them make a page of their green flag adults and they write three people. And then I also say, well, does anybody have a red flag adult? Anybody that they don't feel safe with and
my son when I was doing this little exercise with him, he said, well, I don't feel safe with Uncle Shenty. And this is my brother. And I'm like, well, why not? And he said, well, Uncle Shenton, he does not stop all the way at the stop signs and he goes too fast. So he was speeding and kind of like plowing through stuff. And so that is why he became a red flag adult because it was not safe in the car. So it's like.
Kristi McVee (38:57.459)
Kristi McVee (39:02.968)
I love the lad. Yeah, but it's, it's, he didn't feel safe. So that's fair.
Kimberly King (39:08.438)
He didn't feel safe. So I think it's a good idea not to say, well, your safe adults are Auntie Kimmy, Uncle Shenton and Grandma. It's better to like have that conversation and like talk about it. And who makes you feel safe? What are some of the things that they do that make you feel safe instead of just like naming them because you might be wrong. And then also those people have to understand what it means to be a safe adult. Like if...
Kristi McVee (39:19.852)
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (39:26.04)
Yeah.
Kimberly King (39:34.304)
If you're my safe adult and I'm eight and I call you at two in the morning, you better pick up the phone. Like that's part of it. You have to know how to, you have to know what your job is, right? So you've got to know how to handle a report. You've got to be able to answer the phone. You've got to be able to get there for that child and know how to react responsibly. So it is. Yeah.
Kristi McVee (39:52.331)
It's an honor to be named to someone in that list. I took it very seriously. I have actually had a few of my daughter's friends lean on me and ask me for help and support because obviously I always made them feel safe and comfortable and they knew I would do something right.
Kimberly King (40:09.783)
Yes.
Kristi McVee (40:13.93)
I took that as being an honor to be that parent or that adult for those people and those kids and even adults, you know, when adults disclose and it's there's a lot of people who need someone to listen to to feel safe with and stuff.
Kimberly King (40:16.301)
Yes.
Kimberly King (40:22.851)
Yeah.
Kimberly King (40:27.288)
Absolutely. Yeah.
Kristi McVee (40:29.226)
It's a massive honor. I think right, I love that you create that red and green flag list. That's such a good way to do it. Like, you know, like, who's your three green flags? And is anyone on there? Would anyone be considered a red flag person? And then, you know, asking the why, why does that person? Why is that person on the red flag list? Yeah, and you might just learn something.
Kimberly King (40:47.202)
Yeah, ask the why. Yeah. And one thing I talk about in my book for grownups, that's like a really good way to kind of get that conversation going is keeping like a conversation journal, just like in the living room or wherever. And, you know, if you ever have something that you're uncomfortable about, you can write it or you can ask a question and then the parent can write back. So you can have a question of the day. It can be about anything.
Kristi McVee (41:11.105)
Yes.
Kimberly King (41:14.898)
And it doesn't necessarily have to be about body safety, but just making like one extra way that kids can communicate with you and vice versa is just like a neat way to come at it. Because we don't talk enough anymore. know, we just, think I saw somebody doing a post about how it was so important to spend seven minutes with your child talking every day. And I'm like, seven minutes? Like what? That is not enough.
Kristi McVee (41:15.02)
Yes.
Kristi McVee (41:26.646)
Yeah, that's a great idea.
Kimberly King (41:43.414)
I don't even know who said it so I can't call them out, but it was like one, it was one of these big like parenting experts. I can't remember, but seven minutes is not gonna do it, just saying, so.
Kristi McVee (41:43.554)
Seven minutes? Is that the minimum?
Kristi McVee (41:50.039)
Wow.
Kristi McVee (41:55.031)
Well, seven minutes isn't even like one trip to the school or anything like it. Do you not talk to each other any other time? Like, no, I mean, look, I can see where some parents probably.
Kimberly King (42:03.904)
I don't know, I I think some of my best chats, I think some of my best chats were like when the kids were in the car and they were captive audiences. That's like my favorite time.
Kristi McVee (42:13.57)
Yeah, same. Yeah, my daughter even now if she's got something really tough that she wants to talk about, she'll go, we go for a drive? Because we're not looking at each other. Generally, we're calmer.
Kimberly King (42:24.652)
Yeah, you can play some music.
Kristi McVee (42:26.774)
Yeah, yeah, it's interesting. also, I also think that we don't realize just how our kids like we don't we think people are safe and we think that they're okay. But you know, something as simple as like driving through a stop sign might not like make your kids feel safe or, you know, that I know that my child would say, that person doesn't stop tickling when I say stop.
or, you know, like things like that. And, you know, when you take that into perspective, like when you start thinking about consent and, you know, if, if adults aren't modeling the, the no and the stop or the, or the, you know, okay, it's your body. won't do that. Then everyone should be on the same page. Right. And they should all be modeling that.
Kimberly King (43:04.226)
Yeah.
Kimberly King (43:08.503)
Right.
Kimberly King (43:12.718)
Absolutely. 100%. I wrote a book called I Said No to Hugs last year, which is kind of like modeling that for kids and parents. So it follows the story of my niece who would not hug me. And she's the cutest little thing, but she would just run away, like do a dance, go up a tree, like all these things to avoid me. Anyway, long story short, she ended up hugging me on her own terms and I literally fell off my chair when this happened.
Kristi McVee (43:39.446)
Yeah.
Kimberly King (43:42.272)
It's interesting because at school, most kids just come up and hug you. They don't usually ask. They're four or five and they're full of love and they just want the physical affection. And I read the book to them in the beginning of school. And now every single one of my kids at school will say, would you like a hug, Miss King? They ask. And it's so neat to see one little book.
has taught them to ask for a hug and also that other people have to ask. Just like a simple lesson, so easy. One book, a couple of conversations, and then they have this new boundary that is so important.
Kristi McVee (44:06.904)
Thank you.
Kristi McVee (44:11.498)
Yep. So simple.
Kristi McVee (44:21.504)
And it's important because it is the foundation for all of the other like...
Kimberly King (44:27.266)
for everything else.
Kristi McVee (44:28.472)
Yeah, I wonder like being that you're, you know, in that kindergarten, four and five year old group teaching. And it's always occurred to me like, like these things are foundations, right? They're the foundations of everything they help talk about sex and like online safety and grooming and all of the things. So if we have body safety from the very beginning, it makes every aspect easier and you being a teacher in that age group.
I'd imagine every part of your interactions, the kids interactions, you're always reminding them and like, yeah, hey, that's, hey, they said, no, remember what we do when people say, no, we stop, right? And so if we all know that, it would be amazing.
Kimberly King (45:03.958)
Yeah. Yeah, there's so many teachable moments at school. And I just, I'm so proud of these kids for like learning so much. But I think Even before body safety is social emotional learning. So I do a lot of book reading and lessons on feelings, because if you can't identify your feelings, then you're not going to be able to identify like if something feels weird in your body.
Kristi McVee (45:11.468)
those kids at Sola.
Kimberly King (45:32.256)
If something makes you feel ner- like you have to be able to have those skills, that emotional intelligence. So that's what basically go in a preschool, reading books, singing songs, doing all these activities to help you learn about those feelings. That just folds right into body safety.
Kristi McVee (45:44.984)
you
Kristi McVee (45:48.417)
Yeah, well, I did notice on your website that you had a list of recommended books. So I'll definitely put that in the show notes and I'll definitely put all of all of your books into the show notes. Because the thing about this is and I get a lot of questions from parents and I talk about, know, basically you can start teaching body safety by modeling it from birth, right. But at the same time, like books help songs help.
Kimberly King (45:56.034)
Great, yeah.
Kimberly King (46:12.654)
Absolutely.
Kristi McVee (46:13.336)
know, role playing helps. All of it helps. And that's how kids learn. So let's find a way to do it so that they can learn from us and we learn from them as well.
Kimberly King (46:16.163)
Yeah!
Absolutely.
Kimberly King (46:24.236)
Yeah, it's so important to have that role playing piece. And I also think like helping kids when they talk through something, and this is in the I Said No book, like we do a think, say, do model. So what do you think when that's happening? What are you going to say and what are you going to do? So like encouraging them to sort of problem solve, because when they do that, when they're like active in the solutions, they're much more likely to remember what the solution is if they're like in a pinch, if they're in a situation.
Kristi McVee (46:52.544)
in the moment. Yeah.
Kimberly King (46:54.7)
So, and then there's so many great books that are not about body safety, but are about safety. Like there's a book called My Big Scary Elephant, which is by Angie Lucas. And I'll send you her, she's got a couple of great books, but that one is about like how we all have things inside us that we're scared to share or scared to talk about, but everybody has that. And so why don't we talk about it? Why don't we, you know, it's really cute. And then there's another one about,
Kristi McVee (47:04.275)
okay.
Kristi McVee (47:08.79)
Yeah, that'd be great.
Kimberly King (47:24.076)
what to do if they get lost in a grocery store. It's called Rafa and the Wrong Legs. So like the child like attaches to the wrong pair of legs and what he does to find his mom. So it's a cute one too. There's so many great books.
Kristi McVee (47:26.679)
No.
Kristi McVee (47:37.313)
Yeah, yeah, and I think that's the one of the best things about this generation of like, you know, education is that everyone's got such great ideas, and we're all just trying to help. And I mean, I just gave away like a whole heap of my books as a as a gift. Like I had all of these books in my library, and I gave them all away as a gift. And I've got to replenish my stock because
Kimberly King (47:49.229)
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (48:02.164)
I like talking about books, the books are the best way to learn like for kids to learn, you know, especially if you interact with it and you're like the storytelling portion and then the kids because you don't realize, like you I my daughter is a talker like she's an auditory learner. So having a conversation really helps her but some kids they need the visuals. Some kids they need the role play the kinesthetic learning. And so that's one thing we need
Kimberly King (48:09.933)
Yeah.
Kimberly King (48:19.736)
Yeah.
Kimberly King (48:25.24)
They do. Or they need to hear it in a song. There's a YouTube channel called Body Safety Songs, and there's about 12 songs about all different things. Body boundaries, no secret, and they're catchy and they're cute, and for those auditory learners or for those kids that might not have the attention span for a book.
Kristi McVee (48:46.144)
Yeah, yeah. Well, that's a great one. I'll definitely be sharing that because I didn't realize that that was there.
Kimberly King (48:53.724)
yeah, that's a great collection of songs.
Kristi McVee (48:57.678)
thank you. Well, I'm going to so if people want to find you with mentioned Tough Topics Mom but that's what on your Instagram handle. Is that what you're on Facebook?
Kimberly King (49:07.724)
Yeah, I'm toughtopicsmom on Instagram and Facebook and I actually have a website. toughtopicsmom.com where I house my body safety classes for kids and parents. I actually have a free class for parents on there too, so that's nice. And then my email is [email protected] and I'm always checking my emails and always on the socials.
Kristi McVee (49:22.892)
Yep, that's awesome.
Kristi McVee (49:31.594)
And all of your books are available. I know, but not once you get a break also. And if.
Kimberly King (49:36.438)
I know, right? I'm going to get that break. But I do love to come to classes and read my book and I do parent and teacher trainings with Darkness to Light and I'm certified to do that with Darkness to Light and Sapria. So that's one of the best parts about my job is like teaching other parents and other teachers how to reduce the risks and the tools that are available that really do work. So that's just where my passion lies is.
Kristi McVee (49:43.597)
Yeah.
Kimberly King (50:06.018)
you know, being an advocate for this type of education.
Kristi McVee (50:09.782)
Yeah, it's so important. you know, there's never enough of us like this. And, you know, I do it from my background in my history, but, know, everyone has something to learn from each other and in ways that can help help differently. So, you know, it's really important. And the more of us the better because there's so many people who need this education.
Kimberly King (50:21.134)
Yeah.
Kimberly King (50:31.374)
So many. And we will get there. We are making a big dent in this right now. And I hope the energy continues. And we really do buckle down on prevention across the board on a global level because we need it. It's the biggest risk that children face globally. Bigger than the pandemic. It's the biggest risk to children's mental and physical health. So why are we not paying more attention?
Kristi McVee (50:49.836)
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (50:53.526)
Yeah.
Kimberly King (51:00.194)
doing more. We're doing all that we can, but a whole lot more can be done.
Kristi McVee (51:02.304)
Yeah, exactly. Well, thank you, Kimberly. I really appreciate your time and I will share everyone with everyone all of the links and you can get Kimberly's books on Amazon so worldwide.
Kimberly King (51:08.514)
Thank you.
Kimberly King (51:15.438)
Yay, thank you so much.
Kristi McVee (51:17.325)
Thank you.
