Kristi McVee (03:45)
Hello and welcome back to the Conversations with Kristi podcast. Now I haven't told Michelle this, but when I was first leaving the police and I was writing a book and I was thinking, you know, who do I want to be? Who do I want to like be like, or, you know, who do I admire? It was Michelle Mitchell. And I actually, Michelle, I was going to tell you before, but then I thought, no, let's leave it to the podcast.
I used to look at you and what you were doing in the community and what you were doing for parents and I'll go, I wanna be like Michelle. So you were my inspiration when I stepped out of the police and was like, okay, how do I help parents? How do I help families? Because I feel like we're very aligned in the fact that the best thing we can do for our kids is stay connected with our children and give them as much love, support and information and awareness as possible.
And I think that, ⁓ yeah, and you were, I looked at you and went, I want to be you when I grow up.
Michelle R Mitchell (04:39)
Oh my gosh, what I'm hearing from that is that you really value seeing parents connect with their kids. And I can only imagine from your job, you've seen so many kids without parents that want to connect with them. And I think in my job as well, very early in my career, I worked a lot with child safety, I worked a lot with kids who didn't have parents that would show up for their kids or could show up for their kids.
Kristi McVee (04:47)
I do.
Correct.
Michelle R Mitchell (05:06)
And it totally broke my heart. And I think that really is what steered me in the direction that I've gone. I was determined to equip and resource parents with anything I could to help them stay connected with their kids. Because I realized how pivotal that was. Without that one trusted loving presence in a kid's life, it was irreplaceable.
Kristi McVee (05:21)
Hmm.
Michelle R Mitchell (05:26)
You know, it was there was no one that could fill those shoes and regardless of how many programs or how much I showed up for a kid, they were always going home with that void. So I think that's obviously what we share, Kristi.
Kristi McVee (05:39)
1000% and you're right, like I did see a lot of kids who didn't have that one presence or, you know, maybe their one person was their teacher or their one person was their early childhood educator or, you know, someone, a neighbor or someone like that, you know, know Maggie Dent says that children need a lighthouse. And so, between you and Maggie Dent, I was looking at both of you going, I want people to hear.
Obviously, my experience is different to your experience is different to Maggie's experience. But I think the main theme of all of this is, you know, how do we just best support our kids whilst they're kids you did point out then just, you know, some parents can't because they're not they don't have the skills tools or, you know, they're dealing with their own trauma. That's what I saw a lot of parents dealing with trauma, dealing with their own.
issues and challenges and so they can't show up for their kids. But I think the best thing we can do is try and do our best is all that we can do really.
Michelle R Mitchell (06:34)
And I saw kids that got through those challenging circumstances when they had a parent who had really chronic mental health challenges or had a physical like, well, it's all physical, but they had an illness that, maybe they had cancer and really, you know, they were the caring role really when they went home at night. I saw kids that went through those circumstances with resilience and were
you know, walking through those circumstances. Well, they were the kids that were actually able to help seek, were able to walk into a room and go, who is the safest adult here? And how do I get what I need from them? And I think of community a little bit like Russian dolls, you know, sometimes our kids, isn't it like, yeah, yeah, I can't have a little one in the middle and
Kristi McVee (07:17)
Yeah, like, yeah.
Yeah.
Michelle R Mitchell (07:22)
There's
a lot of parents who feel like they're just the solo person on the outside of their kids the next layer, but they're doing it alone. But I like to think of it like who's on the extended layers of our lives because we need a lot of layers to give the padding that we need to feel like that kid in the center really is secure. And some of those systems that we used to feel that were highly relational that gave that padding
Kristi McVee (07:40)
Yeah.
Michelle R Mitchell (07:50)
maybe not as relational as they used to be and we feel like they've broken down a little bit and I really want to inject that relational love back into those systems so we can feel like that Russian doll has its full set. We need the full set happening.
Kristi McVee (07:55)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah,
I feel like you're right there. Some of the systems have fallen down a little bit because, we used to have, I don't know, like the first thing I thought about was systems was like, we used to have blue light discos, we used to have community organized events, we used to have a lot more community organized programs. Now it seems to be a little bit more corporate or privatized stuff happening. But then when I think about myself, I didn't have the best
⁓ environment at home, but I had amazing teachers who stepped up and like helped me or supported me or gave me that push. Or I had, I remember saying to someone, can I talk to your mom? Like I used to be at people's play dates and because I didn't have like that connection with my parents, so I would go and talk to their moms and you know, spend time with people's moms. And I look back and that's obviously a little girl screaming for some connection, but
Michelle R Mitchell (08:45)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (08:58)
At the same time, it was so beautiful because those parents still ask about me today to my friends from primary school and high school. They're like, how's Kristi going? I see Kristi in the media and I'm like, isn't it, you so you don't realize how much support you supporting another child. might not be your child, but it could be your child's friend or a neighborhood friend child or something that can actually make a big difference to them as well.
Michelle R Mitchell (09:21)
And Kristi, there's so many families just listening in who are having a sleepover for their kids this Friday night. And they're just taking that in right now and going, okay, it's not just a sleepover. I'm actually a lighthouse for the kids that are in my home on Friday night. And I know as my boys have grown up, that's exactly the role that we've been at times. And we've had all sorts of things happen in my boys' life. Sometimes we've had their friends pass away.
Kristi McVee (09:32)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Michelle R Mitchell (09:51)
from really tragic circumstances, their friends' families go through big things and they congregate. And we are the lighthouses in kids' lives. And we be that role as best we can, in any circumstance we can. Let's go back to teachers, they're legends. They're absolute legends. And in every biography ever, whose name comes up? It's a teacher's name.
Kristi McVee (10:08)
There.
Michelle R Mitchell (10:15)
And kids spend more time with teachers these days than they even do their own parents. And in the chaos of schools, I know even those little drops of kindness that teachers do bring do make such a difference in kids' lives.
Kristi McVee (10:31)
Yeah, I mean, look, teachers get, you know, it's been a tough few years, especially for teachers, you know, there's a lot of pressure and there's a lot of criticism and a lot of things going on, but. ⁓
Michelle R Mitchell (10:40)
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (10:41)
I, when I speak to teachers, especially, you know, in my position as, educating around grooming and, child abuse prevention, et cetera. But I just remind them how special they are and how much power they have to protect and help kids. And so yeah, teachers are legends. I had teachers there that offered to buy me clothes for a job interview when I was kicked out of home.
Michelle R Mitchell (11:01)
It's like,
Kristi McVee (11:02)
You know, like they offered
to drive me places to get to an interview so I could go and get a traineeship. You know, things like that, that was out of their way, out of their time. They didn't have to offer and they did.
Michelle R Mitchell (11:13)
And I know so
many teachers feel like their hands are getting tied with policy. The heart's getting, that heart that you're talking about is almost getting ripped out of their hands. And that is sad to me. But when I go in and PD teachers these days, the difference between schools that are keeping their meaningful metrics alive, you know, their heartbeat alive in their school, as opposed to just their performance metrics, which we must have as well, but they can live side by side.
Kristi McVee (11:23)
Yeah.
Hmm.
Michelle R Mitchell (11:42)
those schools that are championing those meaningful metrics, that stuff that actually keeps their boat afloat, you know, that I made a difference in a kid's life today. Those are the schools that are just flying. And I think we've got this narrative, both with parenting and both with education, that everything's so hard. And I think we've got to be so careful with it. I think we do because as a parent, I don't know about you, but I would have hated to be parenting in the war that
Kristi McVee (12:01)
Yeah.
Michelle R Mitchell (12:09)
would be hard. There's so many generations that have parented through very difficult times. And I'm not saying parenting today is easy. What I'm saying is we've got to isolate what's hard and address it. Because I think when we call it, it's a blanket hard. I actually think we're talking ourselves into a narrative that is not helpful. It's just not going to be helpful because it's not everything that's hard. What's hard is technology.
Kristi McVee (12:11)
true.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Michelle R Mitchell (12:37)
What's hard is that that disconnect there, especially when they're in their teenage years where they can go and make plans and we don't know about them and they're looking at things we don't know about it, you know, it's safety that that's the issue. But is parenting on the whole hard? We've got access to so much support, so much help. We've got resources. There's a lot of things that are in our favour. So I think we've got to be careful with what we're talking ourselves into as well.
Kristi McVee (12:44)
Yep. Yep.
I'm glad you said that because the thing is this that we do talk ourselves into this frame of mind that it's so hard, everything's hard. And of course, if that's what we say, that's what it is. Like we're talking it into existence. So yeah. No.
Michelle R Mitchell (13:14)
Well, let's isolate our heart. Like I'm not saying it's all rosy, but let's
isolate and address your heart because otherwise you will drown in it and it's not fair to you. And it's not fair to the skill set that you've got. You're stronger than that parents.
Kristi McVee (13:30)
Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. I make comments about this in regards to like when you're talking about you know isolating the heart. My daughter's just turned eighteen. So
I think the teen years and the tween years were the hardest part of it. the child, you know, when we have babies or when we get pregnant and we think all we're thinking about is that little baby and that little, half of me and half of you. That sort of thing. I don't think we think about parenting in the whole 18 years or even past 18. Of course, we're still parenting after that. But, you know, like we don't think about the whole journey a lot of the time. We don't even talk about it. We just think about that baby, that toddler, that missing some sleep.
all of that stuff. And I think that's what shocked me when I became a parent of a tween. was like, who? No one warned me about this.
Michelle R Mitchell (14:14)
Yeah, yeah. I mean, would we cope if we thought about the whole thing at once? I mean, when I had a baby in my arms, I was just worried about the next time they needed to be fed like, ⁓ gosh. But there are changes that happen so quickly, aren't they? When they're eight and nine, like we start, you know, the first time they stomp their heels, puff out their chest, slam the door, or what the first time they told you to shut up. Do you remember that moment? And you thought
Kristi McVee (14:23)
Yeah, I know. I know. I know.
⁓ so
much. Well, because I was still a police officer at the time and you know, like, I grew a foot. I'm a five foot one. I'm tiny. And I think I grew a foot looking down at my eight year old. And I was like, not the way I wanted to react. But you know, like it was a challenge. And I was like, Whoa, whoa, whoa, my calm, happy, compliant little kid who says yes, mommy. And now she's saying no, go away, shut up, you're ruining my life.
Michelle R Mitchell (15:01)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah. And inside we're going the foot is coming down. It's coming down. The foot's coming down. You know, it's just like, no, this is not happening. But they've got to step back from us. And we want them to do it in the most respectful way possible. But I think there is something in us that realizes that it's not all going to be smooth sailing. And they're not gonna, they're not going to do it in this like, you know, peaceful
Kristi McVee (15:06)
I was like, what the?
Yeah.
Michelle R Mitchell (15:31)
joyful way. You know, we didn't do it with our parents. We want that speed bump to be as minimal as possible and we want them to be safe. I think that's my big thing. I want my kids to be on the other side in adult life. They're 27 and 24 now but I want their experiences in teenage years to be as safe as possible. I want them to be scar free when they get to the other side.
Kristi McVee (15:33)
Yeah.
Try to, yeah. And it's interesting because I just remember when I was a, especially junior constable and I was going out to, Friday, I'd be working shift work and I was going out to nightclubs and pubs and watching all of these, newly minted 18 year olds getting into trouble with police or with security because they're full of alcohol. And, you know, and I remember having this moment where I was like, ⁓ we never, like,
Michelle R Mitchell (16:09)
you
Kristi McVee (16:20)
We're not doing our kids favors if we say yes all the time and we don't teach them to be respectful. And I remember having like this epiphany, like it's really our job to make sure that when they turn 18, they're actually good people. And I think that's, we lose a bit of over Some of us have lost a little bit of that. what is our job actually? Yes, it's to make sure our children survive those 18 years and get to adulthood, but they're a long time an adult.
And we want them to be good adults because they need to be able to, you know, manage things for themselves and contribute to the society that we want. And they need to be, you know, they need to be safe.
Michelle R Mitchell (16:55)
When I was really early in my career, so I would have been, you know, 24, 25, and I was working with 14 year olds in more of a mentoring capacity when I first ran the charity. And I would say to parents, what are you doing trusting a teenager? Like, and I was a little raw then, you know, I'm not sure whether I would say it in those words now. But what I was really trying to say is give them age appropriate trust.
Kristi McVee (17:22)
Yeah.
Michelle R Mitchell (17:22)
I
think sometimes what we do is we feel like trust is something that we just sort of have to offer kids in a way that's just unconditional. I feel like, you know, trust them to do their homework, trust them to walk across the street, trust them to get to their part time job on time, but don't trust them with life changing decisions that are gonna alter the course of their whole life. I've literally worked with so many parents that trusted their kids to sleep.
Kristi McVee (17:30)
Yeah.
Michelle R Mitchell (17:47)
in the same room as their boyfriend and wonder why their daughter got pregnant or you know, things like that. And I'm like, come on parents, like, they're not old enough to make those decisions on their own. So I've always championed the idea of parents going, you know, no, it's not a bad word. And you can let that rope out really slowly. And it is okay to say, you know, trust is not on the table as a bargaining tool. If a teenager says, why don't you trust me?
Kristi McVee (17:51)
Yeah.
Yep. To make those decisions. Yep.
Michelle R Mitchell (18:15)
I normally look back straight at a teenager and go, would you trust yourself? And they normally look at me like as if to say you've got my number, haven't you? You know exactly what I'm up to. It's like, yeah, it's like you're pushing the boundaries. You're doing what teenagers are supposed to do. No judgment from me kid, but you're also not going to get my endorsement. The answer's no.
Kristi McVee (18:20)
Good one.
Yeah, good one. And I think that's one of the things I guess, looking back at my parents and their parenting and then looking at my parenting, there was kind of like this, I don't want to be my parents. And I don't want to be the I guess my policing helped me realize I had to say no, you can't just give them everything. You can't say yes to everything. Because I think if I hadn't become a police officer when my daughter was so young, I probably would have been that parent because I just was so like, I don't want to be my parents.
Michelle R Mitchell (19:03)
Sweet and lovely.
Kristi McVee (19:05)
And it's sort of like she was my guinea pig in ways because I was like, no, we need to say no to our kids. We need to set boundaries. We need to have guidelines. We need to have conversations, lots and lots of conversations and explain why. Because when I was a kid, I'm not sure about you, Michelle, but my parents were like, because I said so. And so I was like, I hated that. And so I, you know, always explained the no or explained why we needed to do it differently. And what I saw is as my daughter became a teenager,
Michelle R Mitchell (19:16)
you
Kristi McVee (19:34)
and a tween and stuff like that. She actually made better decisions because we talked through decisions. And so she was critical. I encouraged critical thinking. And I'd imagine you would explain that to parents as like, that's actually a really good life skill that they need to have.
Michelle R Mitchell (19:38)
Absolutely.
It is because if you don't explain the why they will fill in the gaps for you. So if you say the answer is no, they'll say because you're a jerk of a parent in their own teenage words, right. But if you say I have to say no, because you know, and I totally understand that for the next two days, you're probably going to stomp around the house and be really upset with me. And if I was in your shoes at 14 years old, I'd feel exactly the same way. But the answer is still no.
Kristi McVee (19:59)
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah.
Michelle R Mitchell (20:17)
And yeah, and there's a certain, I call it "in charge energy". there's a certain in charge energy that comes from that that says, regardless of how you feel, I'm actually up for that. And I can handle all that because your safety is my priority. And I've got to put my head on the pillow at night and know that my kids safe. And that's the conversations I was always had. And like you said, when you explain your logic,
Kristi McVee (20:17)
And that's okay.
Michelle R Mitchell (20:43)
then they're seeing the world through that lens all the time. The funniest thing is when you hear your kids, you know, counsel their friends with your own logic. It's the funniest thing.
Kristi McVee (20:52)
Yeah, yeah. It's
hilarious. And it's almost like, yes. You're like, yes, my daughter. Yeah, my daughter, I heard her talking to her boyfriend, her boyfriend had done something silly, like didn't think like it think it fully through, right. And he was dealing with the consequences of his actions. And she was like, does it hurt?
Michelle R Mitchell (20:59)
I won.
Kristi McVee (21:13)
And she he was like, yes, like he was quite upset with himself. He's like, yes, it does hurt. And he she said, Well, good, because you'll learn that lesson. And I think I said that to her at one stage, I was like, I and I didn't say it like that. I was like, you know, when we feel pain, when we when it hurts, when it when we're upset, I was thinking, I think it was a friendship thing that she was she'd done something she, you know, told someone's secret and or something like that. And I said, you know, when we I was trying to make it feel better by explaining, you know, when we actually feel
Michelle R Mitchell (21:24)
Hi.
it.
Kristi McVee (21:41)
sad, pain, it actually means that we learn the lesson faster. We won't do that again. And so I had said that to her and she had said it to her boyfriend in like, does it hurt? Well, good, because you'll learn the lesson for next time. I was like, oh my god.
Michelle R Mitchell (21:45)
Absolutely. ⁓
I
tell you, this is making me think of this. In parenting, I think sometimes we so often make decisions based on feelings or a social media grab that we just saw. And really, we're sort of flying by the seat of our pants, we don't know what we're doing. But what you're describing there is making a decision based on an actual principle. Pain's here to teach us. If we zero in on that and really stop and sit with ourselves.
we're actually going to zero in and learn the lesson. She's passing on something that's really got value, right? I always say to parents, why are you making the decision? If you can't tell me the principle behind the decision that you're making, then you just wing in this thing to the point where you don't know where you're going. Now, if we're not passing on these principles to our kids, and we can't explain why,
then I feel like we don't have the confidence sometimes to know when to say no and yes either. So I'm really big on this at the moment when I'm doing Q &A in my live presentations, I'm actually trying to explain the principle behind my answer, because that's what our kids need. They're not silly. 14, 15 year olds, once you do engage their prefrontal cortex, which can be a big job, but it is there to engage, it just takes a minute. Once you
Kristi McVee (23:02)
Yeah.
Michelle R Mitchell (23:12)
do engage it and you are having those moments and they are glimmers, but those glimmers and those moments where they're listening, they go, ⁓ you do know what you're talking about. You are the smartest person in the room here, right? It lands, they move on and be teenagers, but they've learned something that's gonna stay with them and they'll spit it back out at some point in their lives.
Kristi McVee (23:34)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because the thing is, this that I mean, I hated it when my parents just said because I said so because that's how it's done or whatever. And I you know, I've had to really deconstruct my own
beliefs around parenting as well. Like I've had to sit with myself and go, okay, what are the unwritten rules that were handed to me by my parents and by society and by, you know, what we're conditioned to believe. And so I've, you know, sat with myself and, it can be anything really, it could be like children are seen and not heard, children tell lies, all of the things, because obviously in my space, we know that, children, when they're abused, they will try and tell people.
and sometimes they are giving you little bits of information to see how you'll react. And if we overreact every time they say something or do something, then they're not going to trust us with something massive like, hey, someone's done something inappropriate and unsafe to me.
Michelle R Mitchell (24:14)
Yeah.
You're exactly right.
You're exactly right. And when you have the job you've had, and we've potentially seen what we've seen, that can give you all sorts of beliefs about people, trust. It can do a lot of damage in your concepts of trust and intimacy with people to start with, because you do walk through the world with a certain lens, knowing that not everyone has children's best interests at heart.
Kristi McVee (24:47)
Yeah.
Michelle R Mitchell (24:54)
And I found that as a mom, just working through those layers myself of, I let my kid go to that person's house? I don't know how much trust do I extend here or there? They're big questions. And then, you know, you've got your family history you're working through as well. But I, I don't think that's unusual. We've made a big industry of it. But I'm sure that every parent approach parenting going
Kristi McVee (25:10)
Yeah.
Michelle R Mitchell (25:21)
I want to do the best for my kid. And sure, I've got things that my parent did that I want to do differently. We're just giving it a really good overhaul in this generation, aren't we? And we're in a such a different world because of technology, I think, you know, we're in such different world that we're giving it a really good reshuffle.
Kristi McVee (25:33)
Yeah. Yeah.
right. Technology has definitely shifted the whole concept of parenting, the whole concept of safety, every part of it. I mean, it's also brought its own challenges with it. But I think, you know, from 2008, when Facebook came on the scene, 2006, 2008, to now, the last, well, my 20 years almost, it's really shifted, you know, we...
we're talking about topics that we never talked about, we're having conversations we never had. Sometimes that makes us a little bit numb to it all as well. Like it has its own challenges and its own beliefs, but I think you're right. We are this generation of parenting, this generation, you know, first of all, they never had to deal with online social media or online gaming like this generation has. So that's brought its own challenges, but it's also brought its own benefits. So
Michelle R Mitchell (26:14)
when
Kristi McVee (26:29)
I knew that as a parent as well, like it's a juggle. It's a balancing act. And you've got to those values you were talking about those beliefs, you know, you've got to sit with yourself and go, what do I believe in? What do I what are my values? And what am I going to as a family? What are our beliefs and values? And that's how you manage when you need to say no, when you need to put in more ⁓ boundaries around something is
Michelle R Mitchell (26:51)
Very good,
very good. And if parents can just drill down on that and follow that as their compass, they've got it right. I'll tell you one thing that repeatedly comes up in my work is parents feel like their kids are just so educated with so much information that they never had at that age. And it's a generation that...
turns around and tells their parents things that their parents don't even know. It's a generation that says to their parents, you're triggering me and dad's like, what does triggering mean? Like what?
Kristi McVee (27:21)
Yeah,
they're all of this language that even our parents didn't have.
Michelle R Mitchell (27:26)
That's right. It's like it's this generation of kids that they're just so educated from mental health all the way through and their parents feel like they're just scrambling to keep up with the amount of information these kids are exposed to. And with that amount of information, there's a certain kind of, I won't call it, arrogance is not the right word, but there's a certain kind of, it's unearned confidence. That's what it is. It fuels decisions that they haven't.
Kristi McVee (27:50)
Yes, I like that.
Michelle R Mitchell (27:54)
had real time life experience with yet. And it creates this gap that that's where the safety element comes into it, Kristi that's what I feel. And that, you know, when you're talking about 18 year olds, that's where I see it. You know, I go, they know a lot and they know not a lot, you know, all in the same, yeah, all in the same parcel.
Kristi McVee (27:57)
Yes.
Yeah.
I just
remember I reflect on my own 18 to 21, 22 year period, right? And I thought at 18, I knew everything. I mean, I had a lot of life experience through the fact that I was actually kicked out of home but I bought my first home at 18. So I thought, I'm an adult. And I remember a 20 year old, when I was 20 and an older 35 year old male that I was working with was like trying to tell me something. was like,
Michelle R Mitchell (28:34)
the first time.
Kristi McVee (28:44)
don't tell me about this, I know what I'm doing. Like you said, like that unearned confidence, because I just thought I'd bought a house. You know, I'd been out of home for years. I know what I'm doing. I look, I'm 45 now and I'm looking back, I'm going, I knew nothing. I'm like, I'm still learning. And one of the things I think would be helpful for parents is when your children are sharing those things that they learn online, or they're using that
Michelle R Mitchell (28:46)
then.
confidence.
Go.
Kristi McVee (29:11)
language that you're like, what is that? I just push it back on them and say, can you explain that to me? I'm not sure what that means. Or, hey, you know, like get them to explain, ⁓ okay, what does that mean? And then hopefully, if they actually understand it, I'll give you the explanation or you can have a conversation around it.
Michelle R Mitchell (29:29)
And they'll give you the TikTok explanation. Like there's another side of that diet that you don't like understand but you know, but what do we know sometimes as parents when they're that age?
Kristi McVee (29:31)
Yeah, I know. I know.
Well, and also one of the things that I did with my own daughter whenever she came to me with information, she's like, do you know this? I'd be like, okay, where did you hear that from? And she stopped telling me it was TikTok because she was like, when I said it was TikTok, I would say, well, you know, everything you see online isn't always real. Have you done your homework and researched that before you go and sprout that? And she's like,
Michelle R Mitchell (29:51)
What the scores? ⁓
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (30:05)
So now she tells me stuff and I'm like, how did you find that out? Even now she's trying to tell me things she sees. I'm like, have you done your research? Is that actually accurate and real? You should always source further information. She got really good at looking things up though, because I wouldn't believe anything until she told me and she'd gone and found extra resources and I'd be like, okay, I'll believe that one now.
Michelle R Mitchell (30:12)
That's it.
you feel like like this is period of time where we go through the motions with them and they roll their eyes and they go, ⁓ you know, I don't care about that. But it does stick with them. And when they sort of grow up a little bit, they do actually take that on board and they actually go that you hear them telling their friend like we said, or they start doing it themselves. But there's this period of time where they resist it.
Kristi McVee (30:35)
Yeah.
Michelle R Mitchell (30:52)
because they've got to differentiate from us and they don't want to do anything that we suggest is the correct thing to do. And we have to expect that we have to expect that what we're to suggest in those moments is kind of going to get shoved aside for a minute. And that's not a bad kid. That's not even a silly kid. That's just a kid that's saying, Hey, I'm going to try my way for a minute. And anything that's to do with you, I need to just step back from just to make sure I look different than you for a minute.
Kristi McVee (30:52)
Yeah, that's normal.
Yeah.
Yeah. And you know, it's interesting. I'm just reflecting. I took it as a rejection when it started happening. personally, I like it was something that I needed to sit with and go, my child's not rejecting me. She's just being a normal teenager. She's just being normal tween. She's not rejecting me, the person. And I think we need to remember that is behavior is not the child. The child is not the behavior. They're individually different things. Sometimes we put
you know, you're being naughty, you're being bad, you're being whatever on the child. Hey, no, their behavior might not be so great, but they're actually a good person.
Michelle R Mitchell (31:53)
Yeah, and if there's any parents listening here that have got like a 13 14 year old, or an 11 year old that's just starting to do this, I want you to imagine a roundabout. Okay, so they look like they're walking away from you right now. And they might even be saying I hate you or whatever it be or your advice sucks and you don't know what you're talking about. They're walking, they're walking away, but they're to come around the roundabout. And they're walking back up the street right back to you.
And all you've got to do is just remember that that's just the cycle of growing up. And it's really important that they do that lap. That lap is their lap of honor. You've got to give them the lap.
Kristi McVee (32:21)
Yeah.
And
you know, you got to give them, I knew from, well, I think part of my own parenting journey was to realize that even when those, you know, that lap around the roundabout, you want them to come back to you, to feel safe to come back to you. So that means that you have to put that work in to remind them that you're always there.
Michelle R Mitchell (32:50)
Of you do.
Yeah.
And the way you do that is don't make it all about you when they're doing the lap. Because don't make it all about you. Don't make it don't make it about them being a bad person. You know, like don't make this thing all nasty and personal. Just go look at my kid. They're doing the lap. Look at you go. You go to your lap.
Kristi McVee (33:01)
Yeah, good point. ⁓
They're doing, they're doing, they're doing
the same thing every other teenager does no teenager goes through or tween goes through that period without it. And you know, you're right, they do come back around because it was funny because my my daughter came to me the other day and she's like, Mama need to tell you something. And I was like, Okay. And here I hear I was thinking, you're an adult now, you're not going to want to tell me things. ⁓ no, she's like, I need to tell you, you're the person I tell this stuff to.
Michelle R Mitchell (33:41)
Absolutely. I've got a 27 year old who rings me two or three times a week. It's beautiful. 50 minute conversations. He doesn't have to call me.
Kristi McVee (33:46)
That's beautiful.
That just means that, you know, they feel safe. That's what that means.
Michelle R Mitchell (33:52)
Yeah, it
means you've got a relationship with them and that they never left you were standing at the street watching them doing the lab. They're not leaving. They're just lapping. It's beautiful thing to watch them find their feet and their legs and have their exercise. It's like go do your exercise kid get it out of your system. Look, let's get it out of their system before they've got keys to a car and their own money.
Kristi McVee (34:02)
Yeah.
I
Yes.
Michelle R Mitchell (34:20)
I'm like cheering
Kristi McVee (34:20)
Yes.
Michelle R Mitchell (34:21)
it on when they're 14. ⁓ you hate me right now and you've got your own ideas. Tell me about those ideas. Tell me why you don't want to be me. Let's just let's get this going now. Before you're 18, 19 and 20 and it can get a bit messy.
Kristi McVee (34:23)
Yeah.
Yeah.
⁓ and I saw that time and time again with, you know, young people being in trouble with the police.
when they get out, you know, they're no longer under mum and dad's roof or they're no longer they've got their own adult money, you know, like, and they get in trouble with police. And it's so tragic because no, they didn't have those moments that that testing the boundaries before because they were held so tightly in that, you know, in that space and then and protected and it is protection. I know that parents are just trying to protect their kids. But, you know, I think you will agree.
They have to have a little bit of risk taking early on when it's safer to risk take. So they learn their limits. And then when they get to 18, 19, 20, they're not going and doing something that is tragic to their health, wellbeing and future.
Michelle R Mitchell (35:11)
Thank you.
I mean, this sounds funny, but I remember saying to one of my kids, okay, our goal for this year, I need you to get a detention. I know that sounds like bizarre, right? But it's just like compliance is not great. It's compliance is not always the aim. I want to hear your voice. I want to hear your opinions.
I don't want any of that stuff going under the radar because that's easy and safe for you. That's just avoidance.
Kristi McVee (35:50)
Yeah, and pushing back is a good thing because in my space of, child abuse prevention, kids need to know that they first of all that they can say no, and they can walk away and they can end like, I was always encouraging my daughter to speak up in in her interpersonal relationships from a very young age, like from three, four, five.
you know, all the way up because if she can push back against her friendship group, if she can push back against her grandparents, if she can push back against, you know, even her dad and her mom, then she's going to be able to push back against someone who wants to harm her. And the more confident she was to say, no, I don't like this. I don't agree. And she it's not defiance. It's just her standing on her being able to advocate for herself. And I saw her do that.
Michelle R Mitchell (36:29)
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (36:37)
as a teenager with teachers, with, you know, like I said, in-laws and parents and grandparents. And in the back of my mind, I'm like, yeah, she's got this. She's going to be okay.
Michelle R Mitchell (36:48)
So Kristi,
you're talking about something that parents really struggle with here, cause they're like, what's sass? Cause my 14 year old girl's on fire right now. Yeah. And what's advocating for yourself and they, they get, they that's met. So parents listening, I'm like, that looks really messy for a while because they've got a limbic system that's on fire. So their emotional systems like really engaged.
Kristi McVee (36:57)
Yeah.
It does.
Michelle R Mitchell (37:12)
And so advocating for themselves sometimes comes out in such a messy way. And we're like, okay, messy way. That's like the first and second edit. Like, you know, it's, it's a low budget film for a while.
Kristi McVee (37:17)
Yeah.
Yeah, it does. It does look like a mess. And we did get called up to the principal's office a few times. know, like it's and never, you know, like it was never like, oh gosh, my child's in trouble. It was like, okay, let's have a conversation about this.
Michelle R Mitchell (37:28)
It does.
Yeah, look at you go. And you're like, okay, so we've got the bones of a girl who's trying to tell her story. And I believe your story. Let's look at how we can articulate it in the way that the world will hear it, Darling. Yeah, I love it.
Kristi McVee (37:53)
Yeah.
And I'll tell you how I dealt with that. Because you know, usually what would happen in especially in that 13, 14 age group. So she would she would speak back at a teacher she would she was mostly advocating for other students. Funny enough, she was always sticking out for other people. Yeah. She's a mother. She's like, well, I mean, I might have accidentally done this to her. But when she was really little, I used to say to her, we
Michelle R Mitchell (38:08)
Yeah.
she like a mother? Is she like a mother? Yeah.
Kristi McVee (38:21)
And it was kind of what was inbuilt into me too. I used to say, you know, we always stick up for those who can't stick up for themselves. We look after the kids who can't look, you know, in kindergarten and pre-primary because I was like, you know, there's always those kids that are in the school that, you know, get bullied and aren't being treated well. So I was like, if you ever see anyone treating someone not well, you know, it's our job as good people to stick up for those who can't stick up for themselves.
Michelle R Mitchell (38:47)
She was a police officer of the classroom.
Kristi McVee (38:51)
I kind of like put that onto her accidentally, but I was trying to instill good beliefs and values into her, you know, and so for me, that was really important. So I was like talking, teaching her that from a very young age. So when she was getting in trouble in like year eight, year nine, that was because she was mostly sticking up for others, but she was advocating for herself as well, but she was advocating for others. So here we go, we're off to the principal's office to go and talk to the principal and like the teacher and stuff like that. And what I did,
Michelle R Mitchell (38:57)
right the life sometimes.
Kristi McVee (39:20)
was I got my daughter to write in dot point everything that she wanted to say. So I would, she would put it in a notes app in a phone or she would write it on a piece of paper. And so I would say we would listen to, and I've done this for years with her and with anyone. Anyone who wants to have, communication. I know how hard that is. I've had years of practice talking and trying to articulate my own thoughts and feelings.
Michelle R Mitchell (39:29)
Right? Yeah.
Kristi McVee (39:46)
And when we're very emotional, especially as parents in that situation or as students or whoever, it can feel like we don't actually have a voice. So I would say to her, OK, write down everything you want to say in notes. then when we're in that meeting, I'm going to ask them to, you know, we'll let them have their say. used to like plan it out because obviously I've interviewed a lot of people. I planned it out.
Michelle R Mitchell (39:58)
Listen.
Kristi McVee (40:10)
And then I would say, we're going to listen to what they have to say and their accusations or what they're saying that you did. And then we're going to ask them to listen to you. And I will stand, I will advocate for that. So then what would happen was, and this happened more than once, we would listen to what they had to say. And then I'd say, okay, Charlotte has something to say now. Would it be okay if she shared her side of the story? 14, 13.
Michelle R Mitchell (40:30)
And how old was she?
Kristi McVee (40:32)
and younger, that this happened as 11 and 10. I did it to my in-laws, I did it to my husband, like when she used to come to me and say, daddy said something and I don't like how he talked to me, I'd be like, okay, we're going to go and talk to daddy about this and I'm going to help you talk to him and I would stand with her, behind her, look at my husband in the eye and give him like the evil eye and say, don't you say anything. And I'd go, okay, now please tell daddy what you told me.
Michelle R Mitchell (40:54)
I'll see.
Kristi McVee (40:57)
And I would explain to her, I'm going to be there. It's okay. He's going to listen to you and you're going to. So I've been doing it for a long time.
Michelle R Mitchell (41:05)
Anyone who's not watching now, I'm like jumping out of my skin in excitement. Do know how many girls don't get the chance to do that? Especially with their dads because their mom steps in, yap yap yap and speaks for them. She doesn't need you in the middle, women. She doesn't.
Kristi McVee (41:22)
And you know, I don't know, I think it was like a throw between what I'd seen in like domestic violence in the home, in my own home. Like I didn't have a voice in my own home. And I was like, I'm not going to let my daughter ever feel like she doesn't have a voice. And so I stood by her.
Michelle R Mitchell (41:28)
Absolutely.
Ugh, I wanna be Kristi
when I grow up.
Kristi McVee (41:40)
Well, I didn't realize what I was doing and now doing this work as like outside of the police and you know, speaking to amazing people like you. It's only now that I realized how impactful that was and yeah.
Michelle R Mitchell (41:51)
It's really important. I
honestly since I've written the puberty books and the where babies come from and other questions kids ask those books for kids. I've just realized how much parents struggle with this particular area to be honest, particularly with girls, because girls will come and vomit a lot of emotion. And then that emotion gets overwhelming for families. And then the whole thing gets about
shutting down the emotion and not about the issue that their daughter was trying to talk about. And that strategy right there is gold.
Kristi McVee (42:22)
Yeah.
Yeah, well, thank you. That's a high compliment. But I guess, you know, you're dealing with and this is in friendships. Like, I'd love to hear what you think because I was also helping my daughter navigate friendships from an early age and with the lens of friendships are the practice for relationship.
Michelle R Mitchell (42:41)
100%, that's my, that is what I'm writing about, okay? So I'm a week and half now of handing in like the final edits to Penguin for my book. I have bags under my eyes, but I'm super like, I just feel so committed to this. I think there's the part of me that just keeps watching families breaking down adult relationships.
Kristi McVee (42:45)
Yeah.
Yeah
Michelle R Mitchell (43:05)
under so much pressure, people so dissatisfied in their friendships as well. And how can I work preventatively with our kids so they are able to enter adult life, able to enjoy meaningful relationships? And if friendships can be the practice ground for the skills they need for adult life, I just think let's do it.
Kristi McVee (43:09)
Yeah.
See you.
Michelle R Mitchell (43:28)
So my book really is all about, this is not just about solving your kids friendship challenges today, they're going to change from day to day. These are about installing the skills that are going to stay with your kid for the rest of your life. I want our kids to show up capable of being a quality friend, capable in the workplace and sure of themselves when they enter romantic relationships. I actually want these skills to transfer into their families so they can hold a family together with strength.
Kristi McVee (43:28)
Yeah.
Michelle R Mitchell (43:57)
I'm so committed to the family unit these days. I just want to strengthen families and be that Russian doll set around families. They deserve it.
Kristi McVee (44:05)
Yeah.
Yeah, and there's so many parts to childhood that we don't realize how really like the stepping stones to like relationships and friendships and happy, healthy lives. And we don't put enough emphasis on that. We don't put enough thought into it. I think we do think about it because we're like looking at the breakdown of all of that, like looking at the trauma of all of that and going, wow, how do we fix this? Or how do, how do we make this better for people? I think you're like me, you're always constantly
thinking about how do we prevent this absolute breakdown because our mental health is at risk, our lives are at risk, our quality of life is at risk if we don't fix or don't help prevent some of this stuff.
Michelle R Mitchell (44:46)
you think about relationships like trust is low, like things like reciprocity, boundaries, repair, these are just like, just values that underpin relationships and without them, relationships don't function. And our kids are very low in those skills, you walk into classrooms and teachers are like, they're barely visible in our kids relationships. And we've got to get serious about teaching them again.
Kristi McVee (45:13)
Yeah. I look back on my parent, like my daughter, like, yeah, okay, she's 18. She's not finished. Like no one's finished. I'm still learning. Everyone's learning. Right. She's not finished. I'm not finished. Like I'm still learning. My daughter teaches me things all the time and I have to sit back and go, huh, I didn't know that. Like, thank you for sharing that with me. Or, you know, one of the things that we said to each other all the time.
Michelle R Mitchell (45:22)
love that she's not finished.
me too.
Kristi McVee (45:38)
is, you know, we're still learning. Like, we're still learning. It's okay if we make mistakes. My daughter, you know, if I have had to have like a conversation with her about something that she might have made a mistake on, I'll be like, she's like, mom, I'm still learning. And I'm like, I know, babe, but you know, I just want you to remember that this is the consequences of you know, if this didn't work out. So I'm just being the police person, head hat on. ⁓ But you know, like,
That's the thing we're all still learning. I think we expect way too much from little kids and not enough from teenagers. Because we do, we expect little kids to be able to control their emotions and not react when we go out for dinner and not do this and not do that. Yet when they get to a certain age, we go hands off, like goodbye, you've got to, we don't have to do anything anymore. And I think there's a lot of things that we need to just reverse, slow down.
Michelle R Mitchell (46:12)
Love it.
Kristi McVee (46:32)
And one of the things I think we need to slow down is childhood because we have pushed kids to rush and to be ready for everything and it's not fair.
Michelle R Mitchell (46:41)
And the only ones that think they should be worried is us. And even at 18, like seriously, like they're not ready for a lot of the things that they think they're ready for or that we're expecting them to do. They still need us so much. And parents of 18 year olds, like, you know, between 18 and 26, they changed so much and they need you more than ever in those years. It's a hard time to parents. So I totally agree with you.
Kristi McVee (46:44)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Michelle R Mitchell (47:08)
I think you're amazing. Like, can I be you when I grow up and we can just sort of just swap and meld and that'll all work for both of us.
Kristi McVee (47:10)
What?
Well, I just like I said, I looked at what you were doing with families and for, you know, education and stuff. And I was like, wow, like, and it's so sad because I look back on my early childhood parenting, parenting my early child and I'm like,
wish I had known more like I wish I had had some of the people we have now teaching and educating about early childhood and then I look at the you know the five to ten eleven year olds and I go ⁓ I wish I had known I mean we all do what we can with what we know it's never too late and
Michelle R Mitchell (47:45)
never too late. And remember, our kids
don't have the same measuring stick. They just love you. Like I just want that to land in parents hearts. They don't have the measuring stick. They don't have the list of deficits in your back pocket. They just love you and are grateful that you showed up. And if parents could see some of the families that I've worked with and see the devastation
Kristi McVee (47:51)
Hmm. Yeah, they do.
Michelle R Mitchell (48:13)
that a lack of showing up does, they will realize how lucky their kids are. Like I wish that parents carried a list of all the great things they've done for their kids, not the opposite way around.
Kristi McVee (48:24)
And that's an amazing point because if I can say one thing, when I left the police, she was nearly 12 years old then. And I remember feeling like I'd failed because I'd spent 10 years in the police. And I thought I wasn't around, I wasn't this, I wasn't that. And I was having a big cry. And my daughter's like, what's wrong? And I was like, oh, I just feel like I wasn't enough. I wasn't around enough for you because I was doing shift work and over time and all of these things. And my daughter was like, I don't remember you not being around. And I was like, oh.
Michelle R Mitchell (48:46)
Yeah.
strong.
Kristi McVee (48:52)
So it's only it's showing up when it matters. When it matters.
Michelle R Mitchell (48:55)
Right. And also,
one of my things that I always say to parents, if it matters to them, it has to matter to us, but it's not our job to project our mattering on them.
Kristi McVee (49:07)
Yes, beautiful. That's the perfect thing to finish on because I think that's what we want parents to remember is that just what matters to them, spend time with them when it matters, whether it's showing up at that game now and again, it's whether sitting with them and being interested in what they want to, they're interested in. And that's what's gonna keep that connection alive.
Michelle R Mitchell (49:27)
Yeah, we love them so much, even when they're walking around the roundabout.
Kristi McVee (49:30)
We do, we do.
Well, I had to really try and remember to love myself in those times too.
Michelle R Mitchell (49:34)
Thumbs up please.
Yeah,
absolutely. You just go, there they go. They're doing their lap. Their lap of honour. You go kids.
Kristi McVee (49:41)
⁓
Thank you so much, Michelle. How can people find you? I know how to find you because I've been following you for a long time, but how do people find you? And I'll put it all in the show notes.
Michelle R Mitchell (49:54)
Look, michellemitchell.org and I'm on Instagram and Facebook a lot. That's my main platforms. That's the easiest way to find me. I do my best to support parents on socials every day. And yeah, look, I've got new things coming out really soon that I'm super excited about and I've got a Melbourne event soon. So I'm speaking all over the place. So
Kristi McVee (50:06)
Yeah.
I know.
Okay. Awesome.
And I really highly recommend your books on puberty and on sex. I love one of the best things that I ever did was go okay, buy some books, some resources, sit down and have the conversation, but then leave it with them to be able to help you know, like and come to me if you've got any questions. have you had a look at that book yet? Or is there anything you want to talk about? You know, like books really do help and you've created some great resources.
Michelle R Mitchell (50:43)
Thank you. They were like 20 years in classrooms, getting my jokes right with kids, putting them into comics. They couldn't die with me, Kristi. I had to put them into a book. That's what I did.
Kristi McVee (50:53)
That's right.
It won't let you because your brains keep ticking over and you can't sleep. So you have to put them into a book. Well, thank you, Michelle. Thank you so much for, you know, spending time with me when you've got a deadline. That's amazing.
Michelle R Mitchell (50:59)
Good job. Yo.
it was a joy. Thanks so much.
