Kristi McVee (00:00)
Most people think child protection is about reacting when something goes wrong. But what if I told you that there are people out there doing the work before that happens, standing up, stepping in and protecting kids in ways that most of us don't even realize and don't even know that we need to be doing. In today's episode, I'm joined by Adam from Fighters Against Child Abuse Australia. And this conversation will completely shift how you think about advocacy, protection and your role in keeping kids safe. Let's get into it and let's go and talk to Adam.
Kristi McVee (00:28)
Hello and welcome back to the Conversations with Kristi podcast. I'm excited to be talking to a good friend, Adam, who is from Fighters Against Child Abuse Australia. Now, I was just saying to Adam, I was having a think about how long we've known each other and we have never met in person. That's how the internet works. We meet all of these amazing people on the internet. So it does have its place, doesn't it, Adam? Like, you know, we get to connect with like-minded individuals and people who are on the same path as us.
We met a few years ago when we threw a mutual friend or mutual contact who you were actually offered to support or help at the time through some stuff. So it's been years now and I am a massive fan of your work. I always try and share when you when you put something up and I'm just grateful that you are in that space. I think I've said this before. Advocacy is different for every person.
and each person has a role. My advocacy is obviously different to your advocacy. But the thing is, is that when we stick to the lanes we're in and we can all work, but yet we join together and we create a better place for everyone. Adam, you can explain what you do and how you do it and how you got into it basically. But I was just thinking it back to...
you know, sometimes people ask me for certain support and help and I'm like, well, actually this person's the best person because that's what they focus on. Whereas I focus on obviously advocating for better education and awareness and, you know, getting behind people like yourself and other advocates when they bring something to the table. So I just wanted to mention that, you know, your advocacy is in awareness as well, but you do so much. So.
If you don't mind explaining to the Conversations with Kristi listeners what you and F.A.C.A.A do. Yeah, so F.A.C.A.A stands for Fighters Against Child Abuse Australia. And like yourself, we do a lot of awareness raising and legal reform work. But our actual we've got a registered charity and it goes much deeper than just the awareness raising. Our main focus is on
empowering victim survivors of child abuse, of any form of child abuse, and also making sure that they get their healing journeys in a different kind of unique way. We started, as I said, 16 years ago, as in a very organic way. I just literally wanted to help a kid out that needed it and
β my partner and I were talking around the whole, you know, facts that this should, this should be everywhere because I've been a counselor straight out of high school, straight into AFF and then university. And I always found that the traditional models of counseling didn't work for me as a kid and didn't work for a lot of my friends as a kid. And so, when I was,
personally doing my counseling work, my internships and things like that. I'd go shoot hoops with my clients or I'd go hold pads for them or I just teach them simple martial arts moves. And I always found that that got a much deeper connection, much quicker and also yielded much, much better results in terms of their awareness and things like that. So when I offered to help this kid out that obviously needed it,
we sort of discussed, can we get more help for more kids? And so I just put a call out and I've been a martial artist since I was four years old, so like 41 years now. Jesus Christ, I am old. Me too, mate, me too. When you hear it out loud, sometimes it hits you. But yeah, I just put a call out to any of my friends and the response was overwhelming. And I got people from all corners of Australia say,
sign me up, what are we going to do? And it kind of occurred to me that I have no idea what to do, no idea how to sign someone up. And so we kind of just started saying, okay, you need to work in with children check, you'll need insurance, and you'll need to prove, you know, your lineage, at least you know something, because there's a lot of bad coaches out there. And so that's literally how it started. And I ended up needing a Facebook page just to try and organize everyone. So I didn't get bombarded with
inboxes and emails. And then we just kind of organically grew from there. We had people say to us, hey, I'm going to court. Can you help me? And before I knew it, you know, we're on a flight to Brisbane, for example, to go support a victim survivor who just wasn't getting the support that they needed. And a lot of the time, you know, don't get me wrong, there was services and witness assistance services and places like that do a great job. But unless you've walked
that path yourself unless you've lived in those moments of terror, say lining up. So it's go through the metal detectors at court. Simple things like that. You you just don't know. And there's no way there's no way that of knowing that could potentially be a problem. that's where we step in. We offer lived experience, course support, as well as our flagship, which is our Phoenix Survivors Healing Program, which sponsors
It started off as martial arts and then expanded out into people were asking us for gymnastics, dance.
We now have music therapy hooked up. We now have art therapy hooked up. And I just kind of went by the attitude of if it'll help, we'll work out a way to verify it. And then, yeah, if they want to do it, then I'll talk to the instructor or the coach or the teacher. And the results have been outstanding. Absolutely outstanding. I've lived quite
I've been quite blessed for the past 16 years to get inboxes and emails from victim survivors saying, hey, this is me now. And it's just incredible the turnaround that we've seen. And yeah, we also got into the legal reform space, the same thing organically. Someone said this law needs to change. I'm like, damn right it does. How do we do that? And it was literally Google how to change a law. And we got so lucky because there was a
committee convened in New South Wales. And it happened to be featuring our local member at the time, who was Melanie Gibbons at the time. And we put a submission in and got asked to go speak. And we went in and spoke and herself and Mark Speakman, was the attorney general at the time, you know, pulled us aside and asked us to speak again and in front of a smaller group. it just, it was insane. was, the response was great. And
Yeah, so we kind of just decided, okay, we're going to do this as well. And that's literally how the charity grew. Anything that was needed, anything that we got requests for, we could physically pull it off, would. Yeah. And I guess being a not-for-profit or a charity, it makes it so that you can put all of your effort into those legislative changes, those support of services and work. So
One of the interesting things that you mentioned is about, you know, needing to like connecting with the people, the kids or the or the victim survivors and like, you know, throwing the hoops or what, holding pads and stuff like that. What is it about, movement combining that with, actually doing therapy or counseling like this? There's got to be something in it for it to be successful. There really is.
There's been dozens of studies done into actual serotonin dopamine released during exercise. There's also been one in Northern Ireland that studied the specific benefits of martial arts for victim survivors, which found incredible success. They were doing non-contact karate at the time. And it's just the movement, like you said,
It's just the physicality of moving around and the dopamine, I don't understand how I'm even going to pretend, but the dopamine levels in the brain raise. Dopamine is a great antidepressant as well. Yeah. And, you know, I always sort of make sure that if I'm having a bad day mentally, I get to work early, put the gloves on and just wail out on a bag.
And I know for myself just how much that helps. And I know several of our clients have said, Hey, I can't get to training at the moment, but I really need to go. I really feel like I just need to go to training and we'll help them out. We'll find someone that can take them or whatever it takes to get them there. And afterwards I'll say, no, I feel, I feel a bit more level now. I feel great. You know, I've got this challenge and I know I can take it on or whatever it is, you know, but yeah.
It's easily measured in terms of if you just want to try it out for yourself, you can just jump up, go for a run or move around. And it's not a mood stabilizer. call it a mood enhancer. It will pick you up and help you out a lot. But yeah, it's just particularly for victims, survivors of trauma. We find that there's a lot more than just the movement.
in say, you know, the martial arts environment, there's, you know, really good role models that will be there and help them break the lack of trust that they have, or there'll be a whole team environment, a whole social aspect to it, where everyone's, you know, trying to work out and get the same goal achieve. And that there's another one element to it, the achievement levels, you know, we have
a dance studio hooked up and they tell us about their levels and things like that. And they'll tell us outright, I'm chasing level four today. I'm going for my level four. And I'll be like, great, go smash it. And, you know, that sense of achievement, it gives them something that they just wouldn't have otherwise had. And yes, that's I think also it's it's you can see, especially with martial arts or dancing or any of these, because it is
broken up into grades. means it's achievable. It's small little achievable goals. Yeah, 100%. Yeah. That means a lot to someone who has been told that they're nothing. Someone that's been told that no one will ever believe in them or no one will ever believe them, which, you know, as you know, yourself is quite a common grooming tactic. Yeah, exactly.
And also one of the things that one of the things that I think also helps is that I talk about when we're trying to connect with our own kids is getting to onto their level. so, you know, kicking the footy. So you're not making this because the topic itself is so serious. So, you know, doing something that is fun, engaging dopamine, etc. really makes a difference. Absolutely.
And I did actually see you discuss that and I completely agree about getting on their level and doing something that's a bit, you could almost call it a distraction from the topic at hand. And if you're just kicking a footy or whatever they want to do. And yeah, it allows a much better flow of speech. And it sounds weird because you think that they'd be distracted, but they...
Kids will often talk a lot more openly and a lot more freely, especially if it's a topic they don't want to discuss. Well, the distraction is really helpful because I know when I was interviewing kids, You know how intimidating it is to sit across the table from someone whilst talking about something so horrendous and so annoying. And like for some kids, it's like I don't want to talk about it, but they're making me talk about it, right?
I don't want to discuss this and who wants to like adult survivors don't want to talk about this stuff, let alone victims of like children survivors. And so, you know, I think we don't put enough. It really pisses me off, really. And, you know, Adam, I think you and I have the same sort of wavelength in regards to the systems that are set up are not fit for purpose anymore and they don't. But they'll never fit for purpose. They fit a purpose.
And it's not the purpose for the victim. It's not the purpose for the survivor. It's for the purpose of the court and for police, et cetera. Yeah, we always say this in comments and in posts. We don't have a justice system. We we do not. And, you know, we barely have a legal system. It it's called the criminal justice system. And I truly believe that is for a deliberate reason, because I
Like you said, it's not, it's never been fit for purpose. And if you built a system, I don't think you could put any more flaws in it than the current system, the way it exists, particularly around children, you know, and you hear yourself, you would have had to interview kids knowing full well that you probably weren't going to get anything out of them. it, because it is such a difficult task. How do you get a child to talk about something they don't want to talk about in that sort of environment that closed off?
you know, you're in an office style space. Yeah. How do you then get them to discuss something they didn't want to talk about in the first place, didn't have wanted to have happened. And that's what a lot of people don't realize we victim survivors is they didn't want it to happen in the first place. And so they didn't ask for it. But you know, and everyone says, β why does it take 10 years to come out and actually discuss this? Because it does. And
10 years is actually being very generous. It can take up to 30 years for these. And that's one of the findings from the Royal Commission is that disclosures take up to 30 years and that's just the way it is. And people can't understand that. It's because we don't support our victims properly. And it's because it's such a difficult thing. Like a lot of the cases that
β our victims and our children and survivors are dealing with, they're with people that they actually have grown up with, they care about, some of them are parents, some of them are family members. There's a lot of grooming involved, there's a lot of threats and intimidation involved. And then you go into the court system, you go into the justice system. You say about me interviewing kids, most like I...
I've really struggled with my part in it, but at the same time, I'm glad I know what I know now because if I hadn't, I did my best with what I had. But you as a police officer, you're not given you really are like it's blinkers on. You think, OK, I just have to do and it's this I'm in two minds about it. It's like a survival. You have to survive in that system that you've got. But in the same.
mind frame like if I look back on who I was and what I was thinking back then it was like this is all I can do that's what you're taught it's all you can do if they don't speak up that's it you know like literally tick the box next and so you know and I look back on that and I think far out man like I know that there was kids I interviewed who were being abused but didn't say anything because the it was the wrong like they're pressured into it they you know and all of the things that were going on there
So there's nothing outside of that other than child protection and child protection have their own blinkers. So, you know, like it's like the systems are all, you know, if the child doesn't speak up, if the child does speak up, then they're not trusted or not believed anyway by the rest of the system, you know. And so it's just, it's really difficult. I don't discourage people from reporting because they have to. In most cases, you have to report to police.
But I don't put a lot of faith anymore in the reporting process because there is so many ways that it can backfire, fail and the person's not supported. Yeah. I don't discourage or encourage people to go. No, it's their choice at the end of the day. 100%. And I make sure I give them an informed choice. I tell them what will happen. I mean, look, we tried to change this.
12 years ago at our first thing, at our first committee in New South Wales, we helped write a legislation called the Children's Champion Program. And we did as much as we could get over the line. Like we had the laws written that an advocate could read out the testimony of the victim survivor in court. And there was other things like
you know, plain clothes, detectives, trauma informed data collection, things like that. And it was absolutely heartbreaking to get this over the line to think, okay, we've made these changes and then see what it became. And it, fell so fast, so quickly. A new administration came in and they renamed it from the children's champion program to the witness intimate program. And we were like, okay.
We were supposed to be supporting children and why was it changed? And, no, it's just a better name. And then we were told by a defense lawyer who was defending against someone who was in the witness in the media program. thank you for that because that's made my case easier to win. And I said, how the hell has it made your case easier to win? And he said, well, because right now the witness intermediate program has a backlog of about 18 months.
because it's underfunded. And I just about quit to be perfectly honest. It was such a body blow to hear that something that was created with such amazing intentions and I know the politicians involved that helped work on that were in there for the right reasons and everyone wanted to make some lasting change only to hear that they've now underfunded it and stripped it even of its title.
was just heartbreaking. this is sadly the system that we live in, you can make the changes, you can have the laws changed, and then the judges can just ignore it. Like, you can have recommended minimum sentences, and the judges can go, no, I don't want to get an appeal. So I'm going to give this sentence. It's absolutely it's like you said, it's not
fit the purpose. never has been fit the purpose. It's not putting children first at all. It's not putting victims first and it hasn't for a long time. No. You know, I've been through trials and I've been through court cases with victims and from my perspective as the investigating officer, it's like absolutely nerve wracking. Like as the person who's going before the court with all of the evidence and saying this is the case.
It's terrifying because one little bit of doubt can just throw it all out. And I mean, that's the system we have. And I know that that's the reason for it. But it just, we don't protect or support victims enough. And that's why people like yourself and Fakhar and we've got bikers against child abuse as well. People who are, whether they win or lose, at least they've got a support network behind them.
At least someone's there to, you know, catch them because I tell you what, once your case is over, I'm pretty sure your freaking support network's gone from the court and from everywhere else. You know, you get, do, we do have some in Western Australia. I know that we do have some sexual assault centers and child, you know, child sexual abuse centers, but that's counseling. That's rock up to an appointment every week and or every month and see someone and talk about it. It's not that
family network that those group of people around you that you're providing assistance in way of, β do you like dancing? OK, we're going to get you some dancing lessons. Or do you like gymnastics? Or do you like to fight? And one of the things that I spoke to a guy over here is called the, and I get his name wrong all the time, the How Not To Die guy. Have you heard of him? Yeah. Yeah. And I spoke to him and he was saying,
the just knowing a little bit of self-defense gives so much courage back or like, their self, like they realized that they've got more power than they thought because that's what abuse does. takes away someone's power. They're in a power. Yeah. we got, could be all day giving examples, but I always think back to one little girl in particular. She was about eight years old and she, she was terrified to say the least.
She'd been through some horrendous, horrendous things and she used to hide behind mum when she'd first come in and mum to a credit would bring her in every couple of days, like three weeks before she even looked at walking out. And then one day she was just sitting down in the lines and I'm like, okay, cool. How you doing? And then, but she wouldn't look at me. She wouldn't, I'd hold her up. She just wouldn't look at me. She wouldn't look me in the eyes and I get it. So I just, I'd hold a pad.
without looking, I just been, know, these ones and fast forward a few weeks and she started to really build up a courage and really build up a strength and then fast forward to her first grading and she's there in a uniform and she's throwing these teachers around and yet they're throwing themselves for her and they're making it look spectacular and she's screaming in every punch and she's
like right in their faces, like right up in these adult faces. And I'm just, I just stepped back at that stage. was like, oh my God, look at it go. And like you said, that's the sort of power that it gives back. And that's exactly why we do it. And you know, I, my hat goes off to you, to be honest, I, couldn't imagine sitting in a courtroom after months of evidence gathering.
and watch a perpetrator walk away on a technicality and having the strength to just dust it off and do it again. I don't, how did you handle that? I didn't. That's how I ended up with PTSD. It wasn't, it wasn't the kids. wasn't hearing their stories at all. Like for me, I can, I could handle that every day of the week because by being the person that could tell that, that, that they could tell that to, I knew that I was giving them their voices back.
by just sitting and absorbing their stories and allowing them to have a voice. But sitting in a courtroom and like you said, a technicality where a child's, like their children for goodness sakes and their whole credibility gets ripped apart and it's everything about their life and their family or if it's a parent that's abused them, their other parent gets stripped apart of their credibility and it's just
It's just horrendous how we treat these situations. And I still struggle to deal with defense lawyers because of it. I, you know, I would, this was the thing, like I would be in court and I was on the stand, you know, I'd be getting ripped apart myself, you know, and I was very good at like being staunch and like, no, because part of being a detective and going through detective training is they teach you how to go sit on the stand.
It's a yes or no answer. And then if you want to answer more, have to, and you don't even look at the defense. Like it's very interesting training. You don't look at the defense. You're looking at the judge the whole time. You don't, answer them, but you look at them. And so, yeah. So it's a, there's a whole thing to it. It's a whole class on, you know, have noticed that in courts, but yeah, I have it actually. I've never, never approached that. Yeah.
You get, you get trained how to be cross-examined anyway. So I, I'm very good at, well, I was very good at being cross-examined because I would only answer what I was asked. And if they, β tried to trip me up a bit. this is the whole point victims don't get that, don't get that training. And especially when it's so emotional, there's so much emotion attached to what's happened. It's such an emotional process. Right. And we don't have the trauma informed practice because
If you've got trauma, you don't have a lot of control over your reactions at times because the trauma is what you're reacting to. Not the question. It's the fact if you didn't have a voice and they're cutting you off and not allowing you to speak, you're going to be triggered and traumatized by that. And that's exactly what defense lawyers are doing. They try to do in every case. They want you to react emotionally. They want you to overreact. They want you to blurt things out because then they can say that you're
you're basically, you know, lying, emotional, blah, blah, blah. They use it to break down your credibility. Yeah. So, yeah. So it's just crazy. I just sitting here. Yeah. So my point was, is defence lawyers would do that in the courtroom. And as a police officer, you get called up after the witness. So you don't get to see the witnesses' evidence. So
during the court process, you list who goes first. It's always the victim or the victims. And then it goes from there, like the professional witnesses, so like doctors and psychologists, they go next. Police go, police and then, you know, all that. So you don't have, you're not allowed in the courtroom until after you've given your evidence. So you never see any of this evidence given in court. You just hear about it afterwards.
And so, I would sit there and I would hear about all of the things that defense lawyer did and then they would be nice to me in the hallway. And I'd be like, yeah. And I'm an Aries man, like I am fiery and I have and I have no problems with ignoring people. And I would look at them like, are you fucking kidding me? Don't talk to me. And I always had a problem. I see I see defense lawyers who've cross-examined me all the time. know, this around where I live.
the the
That's the other thing, you go on, so in your socials, you go on and discuss or share cases, actual cases and name and shame, basically. I mean, it's not shaming, it's basically calling them out and saying this person did this. But this is the thing, right? The reason why I think the reason why sex offenders have got away with it for so long is because no one used to talk about it. No one used to call them out on it.
And I mean, the social media, as much as it's a pain in the ass, it's actually been a blessing because once something goes to court. So can you just explain to listeners why you're able to do that in some cases and not others? Because I don't think everyone understands. So the cases you talk about are cases that have been before the court and they've been sentenced. Is that right? Yes. You can't talk about cases that haven't had that process yet.
So there's a few rules for our social media pages. Number one, we're not a name and shame page. We're an awareness raising page. We want people to realize that this is happening on their streets, in their neighborhoods, to their people, you know, because it's very disempowering or silencing for victim survivors to hear words like, oh, that doesn't happen here. You know.
Especially like you said, like you touched on before, if it's the parent of the victim survivor, they're going through enough guilt and shame as it is. Now they've got to suddenly couple on the fact that they're being hated for putting their father behind bars by their β uncles, by their cousins, things like that. For people to say, no, no, that doesn't happen here. I'm sorry, you're wrong. I don't care where you are. I don't care who you are. It's happening in your neighborhood.
to your people in your demographic, whatever. That's what the awareness raising pages do. We have to have a few rules like we don't take non convictions on. We wait for a conviction and a lot of people, they're amazing. Fakhar Ami will send us links and say, this guy just got charged with this and it'll be great. As soon as they're convicted, we're going to make them famous. Yes. Okay. You have to wait for that.
We have to wait. We also have to have a verifiable source. That's the other thing. Like we get we get sent a lot of court papers and things like that. And as appreciative as we are for them, we can't run it because you could you could just be more documents. Correct. And we also get photos. This is him. This is him. And it's like, yeah, that's great. But, I'm sorry, but I don't know who you are. You could be, you know, anyone. And this could be anyone. There's no
correlation. So we wait for a reputable media outlet to run it. Yes. And even then, I'll double check it. I'll run the name through Google. And unless I pull up about four or five different links to that article, I'm not going to run it. It's just that simple. It's just not worth the risk. you know, people get a bit frustrated with it sometimes. And I totally understand it. You know, we want to give a voice to every voiceless person out there. But some stories we can't. It's just that simple. Sometimes they're
sometimes they'll get a conviction and then at sentencing they'll get a suppression order. Yes. And if we find evidence, it means no one can run it and not even the media can. No. And if you look at the example of Darren Hinge, he got longer behind bars than the guy that he named. And it's just, it's insane, our system. So we do have to abide by quite a few rules and we do have to jump through a few hoops and that's fine. Trust me, there's enough story.
There's another story. You're never going to be without, you know, like, for instance, I'm just thinking. So I have done this on my page once before I've warned people because when Daniel's law came through in Queensland, right, and everyone was jumping on and they were checking and everything like that, I did put a warning on is that you cannot share this on your social media or any social media at all. It even says it when you sign and click, because in Western Australia, it's the same. If you put that person's image up,
You are identifiable on that image. And then what can happen is, is you can be charged because there is a legislation protecting the dissemination of, you know, child sex offender registered offenders information. And I've actually had to do a dawn. I've actually had to go and it goes against everything I believe in. But at the same time, the red, the legislation is there. You can get in trouble. And I actually had someone come up to me a couple of last year or so.
I was doing a presentation about grooming and they said to me, basically a family member had looked up in Western Australia, because we had it in Western Australia. They'd found out that this person, their neighbor was a registered sex offender. They'd seen their image and they shared it with someone, sent the image to someone.
And then what happened is they ended up getting charged. She was a mother of two kids. She got charged with sharing that image with someone or something. And she had to go to court and everything. it's just, I know that we want to protect our friends and family. It's fine to tell them that there's someone in your area, but you can't risk it because there's too many laws protecting that. And it might seem unfair that that's the case. So unless it's...
Unless it's public knowledge, they've been charged, there's no suppression orders in place. And don't forget, I mean, a lot of the court cases we never ever hear about are intra-familial. They're cases we can't even touch and talk about because they're protected by the legislation around victim. It's meant to protect the victim. Unfortunately, it generally protects the offender as well. So unless the victim decides, is over the age of 18 and decides to waver their anonymity.
they can choose to have a waiver that as well. So there's a lot of things holding us back from being as open and honest about what's going on in the community. Oh, absolutely. There's dozens of cases, like you said, into familiar that I'd love to report on. I'd love to just get on the page and say, listen, this is so and so. This is what they've done. And you know,
Like you said, it would literally cost me the charity. The charity would be shut down. It's not worth it. everyone that we help would then have to find a new outlet, find a new way. And I know the waiting lists on most of the mental health assistants out there. The waiting lists are huge. And I'm just not going to do that to our clients. just, I'm not. yeah, it's not a risk that I ever take.
No, and you have to be smart because it could cost you that. could cost all of the victims that you help and survivors that you help. So how do people support F.A.C.A.A? If you're based over in New South Wales, but and I know that you work out of like a lot of places, you help in a lot of different ways. So how does it work with, you know, supporting people if they get in touch with you or want to know more?
We've got a team of volunteers that work throughout Australia. We don't really advertise very heavily what they do, but β they do a lot of boots on ground sort of stuff like support support or going in just having a coffee with a victim survivor, things like that. And that's all part of our Phoenix healing program. But if people wanted to support the charity itself, they can hit up our website, which is just FACAA on, β sorry, there.
FACAAUS.org and there's a donation portal on that. We don't receive a cent from any government sources, council, state, federal. We are obviously aiming to fix that because after 16 years, I'm at a point where I feel like we could really help a lot more if we were funded.
Yeah, we are entirely self-funded at the moment entirely on donations. And, you know, most of those donations come through the donation portal on our website. There's a lot of, you know, PayPal giving funds, people nominate us for their birthday fund, which is always awesome to see. But now, a lot of what we do is just volunteer basis. A lot of what we do is people who just want to help out.
martial arts organizations, anyone that wants to be a part of the Phoenix program, 90 % of the time they'll come to us and say, hey, whatever the fees are, we'll take them and just, you know, pay for that. We usually pay for the outgoing costs like uniforms, registration, stuff like that. But yeah, most of the fees, our amazing instructors will go, hey, you could just, you know, fix this up for what I'm out of pocket.
But does the victim survivor or like the child or whoever, do they have to like tell anyone what's happened to them or is it all? God no. God No, I didn't think so, but I wanted to put it out there. No, we've never asked questions. If someone says to us that I'm a victim survivor, I'm going to say, OK, here's what we can do. We also, I'm quite proud to say, one of the only charities that helps family members.
immediate, non-offending family members of the victim survivor because we find that we get better results if, say, you know, whole family. Yeah, absolutely. Of course, of course. And I say this all the time. Like, if your child is going through it, you're going through it and you need as much support to be able to support them. Absolutely. And so, yeah, we'll take on entire families and get them training together. And I mean, that's always awesome to say.
whole family. Yeah, it's great. I mean, I got into martial arts when I was a police officer. I did Muay Thai and Jiu Jitsu. the interesting thing was, it was always like it was whilst I was in the child abuse squad whilst I was a detective dealing with child abuse. And it was so cathartic for me to have that, you know, release. I don't need it as much now. I do more.
softer things with my broken body these days. you know, one of the things that I did find, and I think I can understand why, you know, for someone who's going through something, even if, you know, it's not happening anymore, just, it's so empowering to have those skills as well, to know that you can defend yourself, to know that, to have an outlet to get all that anger and hatred and fear out of your body, because it stores up in your body. And so, you know,
having an outlet, whether it's dancing, whether it's gymnastics, whether it's fighting, whether it's kicking something, whether it's whatever. For me personally, like it was a godsend. It saved my mental health when I was in those spaces because I had somewhere to go that I could get rid of all of that anger and that pain, hurt and stuff. I truly believe all police officers should have some.
level of training that's above what they're currently getting. they do a little bit of empty hand in the academy these days but it's not enough. I was very proud of the fact that I did Jiu Jitsu and Muay Thai for myself. It wasn't for myself but it helped. I mean I'm five foot one if we have a meeting person I'm a tiny little person and β you know but also one of the things is when you're confident when you're confident people just I never felt like
And it's a weird thing to say out loud, like, yeah, I do get scared and I do feel like, I've got to watch myself right now. But when you're confident, your confidence shows and people do notice it. So they don't actually think like I was never the one to back down. I was like, yeah, okay, let's go. And they'd be like, what do you think you're going to do? And I'm like, well, try me. But that's it. And a lot of people underestimate that.
There was this study done in America where they talked about how these monsters pick their victims. And they literally said that one. Yeah, they didn't decide which one. Yeah, because their predatory instincts took one look and went, this one's hunched over, this one's got no confidence, this is the one that I'm going to be able to get. And they looked at kids with confidence who were doing things, you know, and they were like, no, I'll just go for the next one.
And that's a horrible, horrible statement to make, but it touches on what you said before about your self-confidence levels. Your self-confidence levels will reflect to others. And like when we get these photos and these videos of our clients beaming with pride and beaming with confidence, that's the payoff for me. That's the, β hell yeah, let's do this again sort of thing.
you know, because like you said, if the confidence is visible to others, especially the predators. Yeah, yeah. 1000%. I used to think I used to go to jobs like β domestic violence, you know, call outs and jobs where someone's been abused and stuff. I think and when you when you got the the history of the situation and you found out that they had been a victim multiple times and I'd be like,
And I've said this out loud before, I've been like, it's like they've got victims stamped on their head, right? Because when you're a victim, and it used to upset me because I'd be like, how is it that this person knew to prey on this person? How is it that this predator knew to pick this woman and her kids, right? It used to like, and you're right, they can see it. So the more confidence you can build in yourself, and if you can't build it straight away,
fake it until you make it, like carry your head high and put your shoulders back and freaking walk into a room like you own it, whether you feel it or not. But doing martial arts makes you feel like that. having that confidence in, I can stand on my own and no one can take me down. Or if they do try, I'm going to fight them. And so that makes a big difference. And from my experience with kids is that if you do that with kids just for their own
β personal belief and they're less likely to be bullied but they're also less likely to become the bully and they're more likely to be the one that stands up for the smaller people and and and be the kid that stands up for the little person because they're like no we do not do this to other people that's what martial arts and training like that does. Yeah and that's exactly you hit the nail right on the head they they're the ones that have stood up so they would know that they will stand up again if needed.
And look, we always tell our kids, don't start trouble, never start it. We don't have to, to be perfectly honest. don't have to, but you can finish it. Yeah, there you go. Don't start trouble. But, you know, if you have to finish it, sorry. Not really sorry. No, that's right. And that was a thing that I was taught in, like, you know, I taught my own daughter, I was like, you don't start trouble because we are not here to make trouble with people. But don't be scared to stand up for yourself and be
the person that finishes it. And it's not because I'm not saying that from a perspective as you walk around with these big like, I can beat everyone up. No, you walk around knowing that no one can push you down and bully you if possible. And if they do, you're going to fight back. it sounds strange to hear, but I think that's what I was taught. And I think that's what martial arts teaches you. as a police officer, as a small police officer,
I was taught it's either because it can be lethal. if I was in a situation where someone got hold of my gun or taser, I could be dead. so it was like it. And we were taught that if you if someone tries to assault you, it's it's basically you have to be the one that wins that confrontation because, you know, you like again, you don't start things if you can help it. But you don't you definitely don't let anyone else finish it. No, absolutely.
Absolutely. work quite closely with a few law enforcement officers and from various departments and they tell me the same thing. They say it's them or me. And when you think about what that actually means, like a lot of people don't realize the benefits of self-defense because when they say it's them or you, it's not just them or you, it's their family or your family. One family is going to be crying. One family is going to be upset. One family is going to be, you know,
And I'm damn right, it's not going to be my family. And that's what we always kind of try and tell them, because a lot of people go into law enforcement without the realisation of just how real it's going to get for them. you know, I couldn't go into a domestic violence situation knowing that this perpetrator has done this how many times now or whatever it is, because, it just be... so much psychology.
There's so much psychology and so much head fucking basically in any of these situations. it's a, you know, it took me many years to reconcile some of my own personal beliefs and to, you know, it wasn't until I left the police that I actually had more compassion for people than I did when I was in the police. Because in the police, and this is one thing I really, I don't think they do it well enough. They don't provide you enough other.
As in when you're in the police, all you see is the five percent of the or 10 percent of the population that's doing the wrong thing. so you become you become like it becomes this wheel, this mouse wheel of like another person, another person doing the wrong thing. And so all you think is everyone is a shithead, like everyone's bad, everyone's and that's police language. But. β
But really the world isn't as bad as it's as when you get out, you have a lot more compassion. It's a lot more complicated than what it's just you. You need to do the right thing and you need to stop doing that. And there's a lot more to it. So I think, yeah, I think. But but getting back to what we were actually talking about, I think for any child or any person who's out there who who really is wondering, you know, how can I empower myself? I think you are onto it. You've you've created a program and a and a purpose.
that helps victims, survivors and people, you know, understand that they actually have some power in this place and they can take it back. Well, especially considering these are the most voiceless people in our society is the victims, survivors that we have. They've had their voices, not just suppressed, but completely stolen. And that's why one of our original catchcriers or catchphrases, whatever you want call it, the voice for the voiceless, because we tell their stories.
And, you know, we help, but more importantly to us, we help them tell their stories. Yes. And so, yeah, it's quite a powerful statement because people don't realize just how insidious grooming is. People don't realize just how, I mean, you obviously do. I know, and I still get people like, I don't know about you, but I mean, obviously my education is a bit different, but I did something about
that nothing good happens behind closed doors, right? And I did a post about it and it's been shared, it's gone nuts, right? But I've had so many people jump into my Facebook comments saying, oh, you know, you can't just say that. Like, you can't just say that. Like, we need to close our doors because we don't want our dogs in our bedrooms. We need to close our doors because our child's got neurodivergence. We need to do this. We need to do that. And I'm like, there is nuance here. And if you watch the whole video, you would get it.
What I'm saying is, that when you've got multiple children or there's adults and children, doors should be open because they need to be up. We need to know what's going on behind closed doors and we need to be like, it's where abuse can fester. so in my experience, so like you, I'm sure people come at you and they're like, The one that does my head and I'm sure it's happened to you too, is when you say something that you think is so
black and white and you get people saying you're wrong. Like my personal favorite is, every time there's a, there's a death of a child, we'll say ending the child's life is wrong. You cannot take the life of a child. And we have people run straight to our comments section and tell me how much of a, of an absolute everything I am and how dare I and
walk a mile in their shoes and I just go I sit back going you're talking about welfare check on those shoes. I mean seriously I get it I get that you know you might be struggling with your families but that's not the right there's no reason to take anyone's life. Exactly and that's literally all I've said so many times and it's like you're wrong.
And you know, I saw that post about about closed doors and I was going through the comment section going, oh my God, people, you've missed the point. Don't personalize everything. Every word. I know. And I feel sad for them like that because they're so triggered by the fact that I've called out closed doors. But I'm like, if your child's in their room on their own without a device in there and they want to be alone in their room in a quiet space. but if there's a device in there, then I'd be worried that something in a pharaoh is happening.
If they're in there with another child and they're closing the door or, you know, how does the child or the younger child get out of that room and get get safe if they don't feel safe in that space? I don't people don't look at it the way we do because we know more, I guess. And it's quite interesting how people interpret our messaging and how they lose the message so quickly.
It's wild sometimes, but yeah. Sometimes I want to see, I have to like, I don't know about you, but I get in, like I start typing out a reply and then I go delete, delete, delete, delete, delete. I'm like, just don't, don't reply, Christie, just don't regret. You're a lot better at that than I am. I must admit that is, that is one of my bans is I have trouble going like even in, even in your comment section, I had a couple of typed up.
responses going, are you for real? Like, did you watch the whole video? I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, just tap it out. delete, No, my husband, I had a guy have a go at me a couple of weeks ago while I was overseas, say women shouldn't be police officers. I could beat them any day of the week. I've got it. I screenshotted it and I blocked them because I was so ready to fight back. Like I was so ready to fight back. I did.
type one message and he was waiting for us sitting in the international airport and it was like I wrote back and I said, wow, tell me you're a misogynist without telling me you're a misogynist. But I know some females who could definitely fold you up like a pretzel. then and he goes, I'll take them on. And then he had a kid in his profile picture. He was him and his son in these profile picture. And I said, you're a dad, mate like fully.
like grow up and then but then I just blocked him because I my husband was like you're on holidays like leave it alone you're in the international terminal what are you doing yeah why are you fighting with idiots on the internet
But yeah, it is wild. It's wild putting yourself out there. I know that you probably feel it too. Like sometimes I have to really, I have to really check myself because, you know, we have families, we have lives, you know, we feel very passionate about this stuff, but we have our own lives that we have to lead. And we have to, we can't be there for everyone. And as much as it pains us to do that. So
I'm in awe of you. 16 years. You've been doing F.A.C.A.A as long as I have been a police officer and being in this advocacy space. So I'm in awe of you for creating what you've created and done what you've done and still going, mate. you could like, do you ever get a moment where you go, hmm, I could just give up and get a real job or well, you I mean, you're that's that's the thing. A lot of people don't realize is I have a real job. I am an instructor of a martial arts academy and
I love it. Don't get me wrong. I don't I do not go to work every day. I get up and I go do what I absolutely I go to my passion every single day. And just a little reference to your mate. I definitely have some women that would follow you like a pretzel bro. Like, I know some really strong women who can freaking they could have him freaking tied up in a arm bar and a freaking choke in two seconds. You wouldn't get out of the first but
But yeah, so I do have a real job. And like you said, I can't risk that. I do this volunteer. I do this because I have to. Everyone says, did you stop? Yeah, just said because I saw there's always a saying, oh, someone should fix that. Well, yeah, I don't because I have to. yeah, but I could not.
be a police officer that when you look, I'm not saying that they don't like, have a really tough job. And I kind of feel like, β when I was a police officer, I was a different person as well. Like I look back on, have to kind of, there's the amount of cases that I had that I had to turn away and look away from. And now I look back and I go, yeah. It's like, I look back on that and I go, how, how fucking disgusting is that?
victims he deserved it yeah limited resources or look it all comes down to whether a child speaks up or not yeah right that's a savage savage statement that it's so it's one of the most truthful statements about our system that i've ever heard and how effectively that child articulates what happened to them 1000 %
That is wild because you know from interviewing kids, I know from helping them in court. It's not cut and dry. It's so not cut and dry. you know, like for this is a whole another podcast. But the thing is, is that it all comes down to whether the child can say something in that one interview that gives the detectives enough to press charges.
If there's not enough in that interview or they don't articulate it right or the interviewee isn't able to get enough detail or they don't, you know, in some cases they, you know, they allude something's happened but they don't go into detail. Like it has to be detailed. Like the child has to give you detail of what's happened.
to, you know, and without being too crude about it, you know, they have to allude to whether it was a penetration, just a dealing, like, so it's because it's those facts matter in at the end of the day, they matter to the court. And so if you are, if you're unable to actually get the detail out of the child, then it's most likely going to be insufficient evidence. Right. Okay. And written. So we've had cases come through, come across our desk where
the victim survivors have tried to do civilly and yes the police notes the police notes have included things like i believe them to be lying is that that's is that a normal note that you would take? No no no i really i you know it's meant to be observations only yeah observations and facts only thank you yeah that's what i'm only
This is what I have received. This is what has been said. This is what I have precluded from all of that. There is facts and observations. I have observed the mother say this. It should never be, you know, I believe. And I can't say that I've never used that type of, I can't remember all of the case files, but when I early on in my career, I had a detective say, oh no, and a very experienced senior constable.
β one of the best men I ever worked with say to me, it takes just as much effort to not do the job as it is to do the job properly. So one of the things that, and I was very early on, I was a probationary constable and he said to me, Kristi. if I could impart one thing to you is don't be the type of person that tries to get out of doing the work. Cause a lot of police officers went, in my experience, if they're old and crusty or they're just lazy, they will spend just as much time trying to write it off.
and not find the evidence, then they do finding the evidence. And that is very possible. Wow. OK. And he said to me, don't be one of those police officers, Kristi that spends more time trying to find a way not to do the job than to do the job. And it stuck with me. And he was so right because I saw that happen time and time again. And there was cases that I bought before the court that had been written off by another detective because they decided like they were insufficient evidence.
And so, you know, like, and this is the, comes down to whether you, if you're detective or you're a police officer, I'm probably going to get huge issues like from other coppers for this, but if your detective is lazy, if your police officer is lazy and they don't do their job properly, then that's what is going to, you know, if the evidence is there and they don't chase it, or if they, sometimes the evidence isn't there. I've had cases where I was burrowing down every fucking rabbit hole.
trying to find every bit of evidence and there was nothing I could find. There was nothing to support a child's statement or to the interview. And I've had to write them off because there literally was not enough evidence to go to court. That, you know, it was just the child's evidence or the victim survivors, adult victim survivors evidence. And there was no witnesses. There was no nothing because in the court system, you have to have evidence. have to have.
you know, supporting evidence to say or to substantiate that, well, at least this person was in this place at this time whilst this person says this happened, right? But if they don't, if you can't get that, if you can't prove that, then you literally can't put the charges forward. Right. Yeah. But like you said, and you think about the burden of proof is beyond a reasonable doubt.
So civilly is different to the civil stuff. Like I'm not saying it's better or worse or whatever. But if the criminal, if you go criminal and it's unfounded because the burden of proof is so high. But when you go civilly, it's only balance of probabilities. It possibly could have happened. Yeah. No, absolutely. Yeah. So it's a very different situation. I've found notes like that in so many cases.
notes like I believe they're lying or notes like you know question marks next to facts and things like that in the case notes and it's destroyed the chance of a civil case and you know we've asked okay how come this was written and things like that it's like I don't know it's my case notes you know but like you said that's an that's an opinion yes that's right
the
And I know I've seen people write similar things. and just again, like a case that I had very late in my career was of a woman who had been sexually assaulted by a doctor in the emergency room. So there's a bit of a story to it, but basically I got given the case just as I was. I just started in a new posting.
They were like, you have this file, write it off. The sergeant came with me to try and interview the victim and said, just get rid of it. Get them to sign a reverse statement saying that they don't want to go ahead with it. That's what he told me. That was his instructions. He goes, she's lying. Right. Anyway, so I go and I go and speak to her and she's obviously got some mental health and some issues going on, but also very traumatized person. So.
You know, again, trauma shows up in very different ways and trauma can make someone seem a very rational person seem irrational. Yes. And so I ended up pursuing her. Like I basically β I kept talking to her and I kept checking in with her and I'm like, I'm here if you need me. I'm here if you need me. Please come and see me at the station. I'm happy to take your statement. Anyway, she ended up providing a statement and I ended up following every rabbit down every hole.
And this doctor had actually, he was married with a child and stuff like that. And he had groomed or kind of groomed her before that because she'd been in hospital. So she ended up in the emergency room. Long story short, they'd left something inside of her stomach cavity. She had sepsis. She ended up in the emergency room. But this doctor, this surgeon, trainee surgeon had met her when she was in the ward.
and had taken a fancy to her and had been trying to contact her. He had gone into her details, found her number, started contacting her and like whole heap of stuff, But if I had have just done what my sergeant said, I would have written that off. This woman wouldn't have got justice, but she ended up, we ended up going to trial. got three years for sexually assaulting her and he was found guilty. He appealed. It was dismissed.
So, you know, like the thing was, is that if I had listened to my sergeant and my sergeants, because most of them were trying to tell me she was lying and I hadn't, I hadn't fought for her and continue to remind her that I'm here for her and I'd, and you know, even to the trial, right? So this is where I think a good detective, a good police officer is all the difference sometimes in these cases. And even if some of my cases, I couldn't get enough evidence. No, I was.
apologetic and I would say to them, I am so sorry. I wish I could, I just can't get it over the line. I can't find enough evidence. If anything comes up, please let me know. But, know, even to the point at the trial, I had to, with the DPP's permission, I had to get his, sister to come with her because she'd moved over east to get away from the WA and she came back with her sister and went to trial and like we, we walked her through the trial and like,
I was supporting it all through the trial and just made sure she knew that you know I was on her side but I don't know if that's in every case like that was me doing me. That's the exception to the rule and I'm so sorry to say that but what you did was above and beyond compared to a lot of cases that I know I'm not going to say most because like you said earlier we all there's some good detectives out there.
And there are some amazing detectives, like yourself and the work that you just put in with that one client. But yeah, I see so often, so often victim survivors just stushed because they get put in the too hard basket. Because like you said, talks and trauma is prickly, trauma is fiery. Traumatized victim survivors don't act in an easy manner.
to get information? They don't act in a, like, you know, one of the things that I always tell people, especially if it's historical, is to write it down and make a timeline. Because your memories don't come back in one fluid line. They come back in pieces. so you have to put it together in a timeline so that you can be, so that you can, you know, you can have a start and a finish. that you're, so when you sit down, so when you go to the police, you're ready.
and you're giving them everything and then you don't have to go through the re-traumatization of going back and back and back to the detective or the police officer. I wish I had known all of this stuff when I was a police officer and detective. I would have done it so much differently. But I think I also knew intrinsically that I was a very gentle. I got made fun of by police officers. I got made fun of by fellow detectives. They used to call me the life coach because I used to sit with victims and talk to them or even
we'd be at search warrants and I'd be talking to the offenders and giving them life. I mean, I'd be coaching them. Like we'd be at a drug door and I'd be in someone's house. And I was on security with the perpetrator or whatever, or the offender. And I would be like, you know, what are you doing with your life, mate? Like, how did you get here? And I'd be like chatting to them. I'm like, you know, you can get support and here's some support places. And I'm like, do you want to change your situation? Do you want to keep going this way?
The cops used to say, why don't you become a life coach? Because that's what you're doing. Like, why do give them so much time? And I'm like, because behind every person is a human. Yeah, 100%. And they came here and they all have a story of why they got where they are. And I think it's a good place to finish is that you are one of those humans that are making a difference at them. And I want you to know that.
Thank you. That's a very big statement. But yeah, that's funny. I could actually pitch you sitting there. I was. I was always. And like I'd be driving them to the watch house to get locked up for the night and I'd be talking to them about getting their kids back and getting themselves straightened out. And, you know, my partners, my partners are like, fuck, like, Kristi would you just leave him alone? And I'm like, no, these people need someone to believe in them. That's awesome. I tell you what.
I was really good at interviewing offenders and they all most always talked. If they weren't going to talk, they never talked. But if they were going to talk, they would talk to me because they were like, because I, yeah, I'd be the one to get their confession or their like evidence because they were like, oh, she really listens and she gets me. And it wasn't a tactic. I promise. That's just who I am. No, that's awesome. Yeah. I'll put all your links to F.A.C.A.A up.
And I'd love to share more of your like any sort of charity organization stuff. And I'd love to be able to help raise donations for you guys because what you're doing is making a difference. And if we can see if we can support more kids and more families, then that's what we want. That's the thing about F.A.C.A.A is 100 % of all donations go towards the victim survivors. There's no admin fees. There's no no wages taken from F.A.C.A.A.
It just goes straight into the programs. You're a true charity. You're a true charity. Thank you. Well, have a good rest of your day, Adam. And when this podcast goes up, I'll make sure everything's in there. Awesome. Great. No worries. Make sure you let me know and I'll be sure to get it out there. Thanks, Kristi. Cheers.
Kristi McVee (1:00:48)
If this episode got you thinking or shifted something for you, that's exactly the point of this podcast. These conversations aren't always easy, but they matter. And the more we understand the roles we each play in protecting children, the better equipped we are to actually do something about it. But if you found this episode helpful, make sure you share it with someone who needs to hear it because awareness is great, but action is what keeps kids actually safe.
And if you're ready to start having these conversations in your own home, just remember I've got heaps of resources on my website that can help you do this in a calm, practical and age appropriate way. You know, you'll find everything in the show notes, including all of the information about F.A.C.A.A and Adam. Thanks for being here and I'll see you in the next episode.
