Kristi McVee (00:00)
If you have kids or you're raising them, you'll already know that keeping them safe isn't just about rules. It's about culture. It's about conversations and it's about having the courage to look at the uncomfortable stuff before something goes wrong. In this episode of conversations with Kristi. I'm talking with Nicole Talarico. Consultant, author and child safety specialist about what it actually takes to embed safety in the everyday because compliance isn't culture.
And the services and families who get that, they're the ones ahead of the curve. Let's go see what Nicole has to say in this episode.
Kristi McVee (00:33)
Well, here we are, Nicole. Finally, we get to finally catch up. This has been a long time coming, but I'm super excited to chat to you today. And I was just saying to you that I record the intro afterwards. And usually how I start these podcasts is how did I meet you? And I think it was around the time that I released my book, you bought my book and you reached out to me. That's how I met you originally.
Nicole Talarico (00:40)
lightly.
Absolutely it is. remember I did buy your book and for those people that know me well, they know that I need a hard copy. There's no online reading here. So I highlighted your book and I had post-it notes all over it. And I'm like, yes, I am loving this because back when you wrote that, there wasn't many people with, you know,
Kristi McVee (00:59)
And you bought my book, you were one of my, like the first to buy my book.
Nicole Talarico (01:26)
really lived experience of seeing the other side of what perpetrators and offenders, you know, what appealed to me was that you knew the insides of that side.
Kristi McVee (01:31)
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah. I really appreciated you buying it because it was such an honor. Like, you know, you've written your own book, right? So it's one of those things where, like, when you're writing it, you're like, will anyone ever read this?
Nicole Talarico (01:53)
This is so
true. And you think, my gosh, I'm being so pedantic about how I'm saying this. Yeah, how I'm saying this, how I want this to land. Hang on, people are going to like read this, right? And you're constantly having that narrative in your head.
Kristi McVee (01:58)
the small things.
Hahaha
Are they going to
read it? What are they going to take from it? And the other thing that happens is, they going to read it? And then, my God, people are going to read this. You know, like the other fly side, my God, people are actually going to read this.
Nicole Talarico (02:23)
And then you
go back over going, ooh, have I articulated that in the right language so that I'm really making clear what I'm trying to say here? And I'm being really, you know, like careful and ethical in the way that I'm saying this. I've got to really read back over. And at some point I think I just went, my gosh, I cannot read this anymore. feel like, yeah, yeah.
Kristi McVee (02:42)
I know.
And I mean, your book's called Asserting a Culture of Child Safety, and it's such an important book in your space and in early childhood education, but in all education and all child safety spaces, or any space that has children. I think it's, I just think that, I think we were on the cusp of like,
before everyone else. And now we've got so many more books coming out and there's so many more books in this space. So it's really cool that we were at the start of that and that we created books that, you know, we're calling things out as it was back then.
Nicole Talarico (03:16)
true and you know it's funny because I was up in the Gold Coast at the end of last week and you know I never really even though I had been presenting at conferences for years I'd never actually thought about the fact that you can quote yourself and put your own quote on it. It's so funny because now when we're like really you know there is has been so much legislative change and there are like you said so many amazing resources and tools
now. But it's funny because I like it when you say that we were on the, you know, that we were early entry into actually being quite explicit about what needed to happen in terms of safeguarding. And, you know, we know, and I think more and more people, particularly in the education sector, are now knowing that, you know,
you can have your blinkers on, but that doesn't mean things aren't happening. And it's interesting because one of the quotes that I often like to use is that when you get complacent, you end up with abuse pretty much in your own service. And know, back in 23, writing that was so that, you know, that was one of the things I wanted to make really clear is because this is going to happen guys, if you are not
Kristi McVee (04:30)
Mm.
Nicole Talarico (04:34)
becoming alert to what's going on. you know, fast forward, I wish we didn't know the reality of that now.
Kristi McVee (04:40)
You literally called it. I'm sure you had a moment of โ shit it's in the media and it's happening but you knew I knew you knew we knew this but we weren't no one was talking about it and then it takes massive media coverage and you know four corners coming out and saying it's happening and all of this stuff for people to stand back and go shit โ they're not they're not just like making it up.
Nicole Talarico (04:46)
Yeah. I know!
Yeah, we can do something.
No, and you know, that is a bittersweet moment. You're exactly right because you're like, there is a part of me that goes, โ fantastic. This saturation is now going to see some, you know, needed change that we've been banging on about for years. But there's also that part that goes, you know what? We could have already been so far ahead if people had a house prop, isn't it, right?
Kristi McVee (05:14)
change.
Yeah, that's our culture though.
Nicole Talarico (05:26)
People like to work in damage control, unfortunately, and...
Kristi McVee (05:31)
Yeah it is
and and it's the like literally the police like I used to laugh at old senior constables in my job right so it doesn't matter which industry you're in doesn't matter which like any kind of career path you take people don't change anything until the shit hits the fan and they have to change it right so as as anyone listening to this just think back on your own
like situations in your own workplaces, in your own workforces, because it doesn't matter if you're someone working in an office in like administration or accounting, it doesn't matter if you work in a car yard, it doesn't matter if you work in it as a trades person, it doesn't matter who you are, where you work, nothing changes until someone does the wrong thing. what we saw with like, Oak Health and Safety is too many people died in the workplace, so they bought in Oak Health and Safety legislation and they bought in rules around that.
Nicole Talarico (06:14)
Absolutely.
Kristi McVee (06:23)
Everyone was jumping up and up and down and making a big deal about it and saying that you're ruining the workplace and 20 years down the track here we are going, well, that's just how it is. The same thing can be said for child safety. Everyone's like, it's ruining it, it's ruining it. We can't do anything. We can't, but it had to happen. And I used to laugh. And my point is, is I used to laugh when I was working as a police officer because senior constables would say,
Nicole Talarico (06:33)
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (06:49)
they've ruined the job. There's too many rules. We now have to do this and we have to report this and we have to like write on this and we have to have, you know, body worn cameras and we have to, you know why? And I used to just say, well, if people weren't so lazy and stupid, mind my French, but if people weren't so freaking good at trying to cut corners and do the wrong thing, we wouldn't have these rules in place. So blame the people who did it.
Nicole Talarico (07:12)
That's all.
Yeah, yeah.
Kristi McVee (07:14)
And same with
the child safety space. If people didn't try to cut corners, cut down the amount of supervision, and I know that it's not the people on the floor that is doing it, I'm talking about management here, if we didn't mismanage the situation and we made safety a priority, we wouldn't be in the situation we're in.
Nicole Talarico (07:34)
That's exactly right. When you're at high quality, professional, you know, onboarding and training and ongoing support to keep up with what's going on, that was it, you know, and still is the case where it's often not prioritized. unless there is, you know, an enforced, you know, and you and I know, you know, more than anyone having been in police force, you know, rules and laws and enforcement.
doesn't make people want to do change. It just makes there's more talk about it and you probably get more than one or two to actually commit to accountability. And I think this is where there's been so, know, particularly in my sector where there's been so much burnout and staff changes, there hasn't been a really robust.
Kristi McVee (08:14)
Mm-hmm.
Nicole Talarico (08:26)
onboarding HR and ongoing support for the varied workforce that we have lost and then are looking at filling spaces. And so, I was just talking to somebody yesterday where they were saying, โ and now we've got to do this national rollout of child safety. That's only a problem if you don't know a lot of the content. โ
Kristi McVee (08:50)
It's only
a problem if you look at it as it's a problem. What about looking at it as the fact is that it's really important that we keep kids safe.
Nicole Talarico (08:53)
I think it's a girl!
What?
Right? And you know, โ
Kristi McVee (09:00)
It's not
a problem then when your first thought is child safety and everything else around it is an added bonus.
Nicole Talarico (09:05)
Yeah, yeah,
yeah, I know. But it's an added burden when really when we're actually trying to do this work, you know, like you and I said at the beginning where, you know, there's resources out there to grab onto and get more information. It's not an added burden. It's an added bonus. What else don't I know?
Kristi McVee (09:10)
Yes.
Yep.
Yeah. Well, I we've gone straight into the knitting, like the straight into like boom. And my listeners probably going, who is this woman? And how come we've never heard of Nicole? So tell everyone exactly how you got to where you are and to the amazing author, speaker, trainer that you are and how you're supporting, you know, our
early childhood and child safety sectors.
Nicole Talarico (09:54)
look, my journey, makes me feel really old. I know that people say that, come on, but really, I actually have to say that it's been a progressive journey for me. You know, the good thing is that I started out as a preschool teacher and worked in a number of different services. so, you know, what I used to do was take the maternity leave positions because
Kristi McVee (09:57)
Ha
yes.
Nicole Talarico (10:22)
that I could move around and get my foot into the door of all these different sector types. And it didn't look bad on the resume for whatever reason, people were always coming back to their job and I'm like, okay, it's been fun, see ya. And then I often did something else. And it also meant that for some of the, I managed the childcare field officer team at the city of Monash. So I dabbled in a bit of local government team culture. And that was actually also good too, because I was only in my early twenties and people didn't really want to give
Kristi McVee (10:34)
Yeah.
Nicole Talarico (10:51)
team leader jobs or managers jobs in our sector to young people. But if it was a mat leave position and they knew it was going to be short filled or a year or what, they were more happy to do it. So it meant that I got, I was really lucky. It meant that I was able to get some really good insight into the way different teams work, different sector types in our, know, whether it be long daycare or sessional preschool or out of school hours care, vacation care.
Kristi McVee (11:01)
Yeah.
Nicole Talarico (11:19)
โ So I kind of did that and then I was crazy because I used to go out on the school holidays and manage the vacation care program for Melbourne University. Yeah, why did I do that?
Kristi McVee (11:29)
wow, you are crazy.
You had time off, but you go, now let's do some more work.
Nicole Talarico (11:35)
So I did that and then โ I moved into training, the training space for Gowrie Victoria. And then I had four children of my own. So it meant that I had enough skills and experience to be able to then go, you know what, can consult. So I've literally consulted for the last, well, when my daughter was only a couple of months old, I started my own consulting. So I've been doing for 20 years and I've been, you know,
Kristi McVee (11:59)
Yeah.
Nicole Talarico (12:02)
I am fortunate because I have been able to support the education and care sector directly for so many years with their quality improvement planning and they're helping them to understand how you embed compliance into everyday practice. So I continued to do that until probably the last 10 years where I've really focused on
Safeguarding, I think probably what sparked it for me was that when we would look at, you know, quality area health and safety, there was always, just, you know, I don't know why and it's still often somewhat the case where people would be really focused on everything else and the health and safety would come as an extra add on later. So I thought, you know, I think I need to,
improve, you know, and I started medical action bags then because I used to get really frustrated that medication would be in cupboards in staff rooms or the planet. And, you know, I'm thinking, wow, these children's lives are at risk here if they have an anaphylactic reaction and staff don't know or relievers don't know where the medication is. And I think that's probably what really did stop safeguarding for me. And it then just turned full circle. And I was really looking at
Kristi McVee (13:02)
Yeah.
Nicole Talarico (13:21)
you know, what happens in an emergency, but what happens every day โ regardless.
Kristi McVee (13:25)
Yeah, what's your culture? What's your culture in this space? Like, does everyone
know what to do? And people think, I think when you see the worst, you actually start, it's almost like, as a police officer, we see the worst, right? So we see what happens when people aren't prepared, aren't ready. And as a police officer, you're prepping for the worst all the time, you're prepping for the worst. And so to me, actually, that's not a bad way to support people.
Nicole Talarico (13:43)
Mmm, yeah.
Good job.
Kristi McVee (13:53)
As in, I mean, people are like, โ does your child ever worry that like, you know, was she ever scared because you were always thinking about the worst case scenarios were you ever. But I think when you get over the fear of shit going wrong and things going bad, and you realize actually, when I think worst case scenario, I can put in place all of the safeguards to make sure that my child, any child is safe in this environment. And we can put those like boundaries in place.
Nicole Talarico (14:11)
Yes.
This is my
Kristi McVee (14:19)
and then they're safe there, but you're not panicking because you're not prepared.
Nicole Talarico (14:24)
This is the thing. I think that's where you ground yourself in confidence and capability. Because when you've thought about worst, like you said, worst case scenario, I'm always saying to services, think about what could happen, what could seriously happen. And every single strategy you think about and implement to mitigate harm gives you that added level of surety that you are well informed in your space. Otherwise you're running through with blinkers on and blindfold.
Kristi McVee (14:53)
Yeah. And then, and then you're trying like, you're Sandra Bullock in that movie, I can't remember what it's called, where she's got nothing on her, she's like, hands out like this.
Nicole Talarico (15:00)
And
like, you know what, be well prepared because, and I think there's some level of brave, you know, I know when I was writing that book, there were two reasons. It was because people hadn't realised the extent of what abuse looks like and there would not, you know, this child protection chain would come up once a year.
Kristi McVee (15:18)
Hmm.
Nicole Talarico (15:22)
that but it still was working in damage control when you thought there were concerns. But the other part about that was that, you know, and I did mention it earlier, but it just used to really bother me that everybody had this assumption that abuse happens outside of the bubble and we're not in a bubble. And so I actually wanted people to actually be brave enough to consider what could happen in
Kristi McVee (15:39)
It didn't happen. Yeah.
Nicole Talarico (15:52)
your on your watch. And I think that's still really hard. That's a hard pill to swallow still for a lot of educators. They find it extremely confronting. And I think some people will often say, you know, because I have, you know, spent a lot of time in COVID actually really connecting with, you know, like Culture ReFramed over in the UK and Thorn and lots of other
you know, the e-safety commissioner came up, but I've done lots of stuff in the harm of pornography and sexual assault, you know, training and then the last couple of years working directly in that space in child protection and the orange door. But I think, you know, when you, a bit similar to what you were saying, when you actually know the extent of what happens,
Kristi McVee (16:44)
Mm-mm.
Nicole Talarico (16:45)
What is often alarming for some people is just, you know, it's not shocking anymore. So I think maybe for me, I think it's okay because I'll often say to people, well, give me a scenario, tell me what you're concerned about and nothing's going to shock me. I've pretty much read and seen and been involved with cases that are horrific, so horrific that you actually don't even jerry that they're real.
Kristi McVee (17:01)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Nicole Talarico (17:11)
So nothing's going to shock me. So lay it all out on the table so we know what we're working with here.
Kristi McVee (17:16)
I think, especially because the harm of children is so hard to fathom, because most people go into early childhood education or some sort of early child education, whether you become a preschool teacher or early childhood educator or whatever it is, they go into it because they actually care about kids and they like kids. You don't go into it most of the time. There might be a few people who fall into it because they think it was an easy way to get paid or whatever reason for, or they're
Nicole Talarico (17:34)
That's fine.
Kristi McVee (17:43)
there are other reasons. don't know. There is nothing worse. I used to go into early childhood education centers when I was dropping my daughter off or I was like, give me a give me a drunk person to wrestle on a Friday night at the outside the pub and you know, anytime they like you know what I mean? Like, give me give me a search warrant, drug search warrant kicking a door in like
Nicole Talarico (18:06)
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (18:09)
Give me whatever, I'm happy.
Give me a child interview, like seriously, but give me 30 kids in an early childhood education center running around outside. I'd be running for the hills, you know? And like, so you don't go into these industries not caring about kids.
Nicole Talarico (18:24)
you don't. And you genuinely want children to be thriving and happy. And I think that's what's so unsettling and that's often the angle that we need to use, don't we? Where we're going, you know what, is upsetting and uncomfortable. This is for you. This isn't about you. This is about you holding.
Kristi McVee (18:42)
No, I like
I'm glad you said that because I used to have to say that to parents and and this is the truth right it's not about you this is about kids this is about kids child safety this is about you know this is about setting boundaries and being the safe person in that child's life and making sure that they understand what safe is so that they can come to you if they're not safe.
Nicole Talarico (19:06)
exactly right. don't think there is any and you know many parents think I don't want to have that conversation because I don't want to give them insight into an adult world or tell them about something that they are not ready for. They already know. โ Right.
Kristi McVee (19:24)
Most of them do. To some extent,
to some way, it's in their world anyway.
Nicole Talarico (19:29)
And unfortunately, you know, with the rapid rate of online or tech, you know, tech facilitated abuse, so much harm has come, know, tech, don't get me wrong. I think tech is amazing for connection and belonging for many, many children, particularly who are remote or to connect with culture. think that that's something, you know,
a lot of services will often avoid tech altogether because it's too scary to be in control of, but that then is at detriment to children that need that connection or who are perhaps neurodiverse and would prefer not to be out or have difficulty with social environments. So there are absolutely positives for that.
But there's also that rapid rate of exposure to harm that we have to get real with.
Kristi McVee (20:24)
And we have to get
it right. we can't just, you know, I was having a laugh. I think, I don't know if it was at last night, maybe it was last night on the news or something about, there was a report, my dad, my 88 year old dad lives with me and my 18 year old lives with me. So there's three generations, massive 70 year gap between my dad and my daughter. And so laughing because on the news last night, was, there was a report about.
Nicole Talarico (20:42)
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (20:48)
grandparents thinking that this generation of parents isn't you know is making mistakes and being too lenient and not having you know not enforcing certain rules. Anyway whatever they will say is sprouting on the news my dad goes what a load of shit it's up to the parents how they do it and I was like and he's been he's been pretty supportive of like he just he never steps over like anything and says anything about how we parent or parented. You don't parent an 18 year old you just suggest now.
But yeah, so, you know, that's the thing. And so it was quite funny how he was like, you don't tell people how to bring their kids up or how to raise their kids, you just, you you support and you might if they ask for support or ask for suggestions, that's when you offer it. But and I was like, wow, it's quite an interesting way. And and you know what, he was pretty good like that. But, other parents and and my point is, is that with regards to tech,
I had to laugh to myself because I've got other, obviously more grandparents and some of those haven't been great with tech. They've just like handed over the phone, handed over the device and they've not really thought what's the repercussions of this. So tech, if done safely and well, can be a great support for kids and young people and families. But if done with no boundaries and no guidelines and no safety net, then it's not so great.
Nicole Talarico (21:49)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, that's cool.
I saw a really good quote yesterday on Mustaveen on the socials and it was, is only as safe as their best mates lack of tech intervention. And I'm like, yeah, so true. Cause I think I came off a pornography conference years ago.
Kristi McVee (22:22)
That's so true.
Nicole Talarico (22:25)
And so of course I get off and do a bit of a test with my own children and I'm like, โ they were talking about infiltration into games today and blah, blah, blah, blah. And so I asked to eat all of them and they're like, โ again. I'm like, no, come on. I just really need to get this, I need this understanding. And so then they would reel off wins the first time they saw content and it was always at someone else's house.
Kristi McVee (22:48)
Yeah, yeah.
Exactly.
If you can learn anything, you can do all of the greatest things but when they're at their friend's house or even on the school bus or at school where their friends have got access to it, that's where they're going to see it.
Nicole Talarico (22:57)
Good! Yeah?
Yeah, this is the thing and that's why I often say when I'm talking to services and educators about tech safety I said you have a non-negotiable to include how to protect yourself and how into your curriculum so children know what to do when they're not with you when they are at the caravan park over Easter or they're at the basketball stadium and your luck is being having been working in the police force is that one of the four children
he was the youngest and not because of exposure by his older siblings. He was at his mate's house and they're both parents who are feds.
Kristi McVee (23:42)
and that's where
was exposed. Do you know what? I'm gonna say this straight out, anyone listening, sorry, but teachers and police officers usually have the worst safety nets around their kids because we either are too tired, we're sick of listening and talking about it, we can be the worst at it. I I only had one child, so I reckon if I had four, I probably would have got to the last one and been like, whatever.
Nicole Talarico (24:05)
Look, have, yeah, and yeah, there's a bit of that having for, I'm like, ooh, I probably am way more lax on some stuff with you than I was particularly with your older sister. yeah, we are real about this. And I also think, you I have never shied away from uncomfortable conversations with my children because I figure that you, you know, the uncomfortableness is often,
Kristi McVee (24:16)
It happens though, and I mean, we're real about this, Nicole.
Nicole Talarico (24:33)
you know, whether it's them or me, it's really about, I don't care how we have this conversation, but this content has to come into the air.
Kristi McVee (24:40)
I actually shared a quote yesterday. It's from, I don't know who said it, but it says, you have hard conversations today or hard consequences tomorrow. so, and so it, because the consequences of not having the conversation is really, they can be more difficult than having the conversation.
Nicole Talarico (24:48)
See, I love that, right?
Yes, that's exactly right.
And I said, and you can pretend that you're not listening to me, but the reality is when something goes down that you think, โ that's scary, that's not right, whatever, hopefully that little button pops in your head and goes, I remember mum saying something about this and I shut her down. So I'll often say, just give me five minutes, two minutes. I just got to tell you the important parts.
Kristi McVee (25:17)
Well, this is really interesting because I often get parents say, โ my teen doesn't want to talk to me. My child doesn't want to listen. Then they're disengaging and stuff like that. So what would you say? I mean, you've got four kids of probably all different personalities and learning types.
Nicole Talarico (25:30)
Yeah, and
you know, and it's funny because I often think what would I do as a parent or what would I advise as a child and wellbeing practitioner, which I was for the last two years in statutory and non statutory services. And a lot of that was disengaged children in very complex. I worked in the reunification and response team.
Kristi McVee (25:36)
Hmm
Okay.
Nicole Talarico (25:52)
for
children that you know, that children have been removed or have just recently been reunited with their families. And a lot of those children had complex family lives, things to navigate. And a lot of it was disengagement and not being able to communicate. And what I often say is you gotta pick a time that, and you know,
Kristi McVee (26:02)
histories,
Nicole Talarico (26:13)
And I sometimes blend it in between what would I do as the parent and the professional and then somehow go for a bit of a mix in between. And so you've really got to and if you think about it, like nobody really likes sitting down to have a serious conversation. It's got to be you've got to be able to move.
Kristi McVee (26:30)
No, never.
sorry.
I you say that but I actually love like really getting deep deep deep diving into shit. like, yeah, I'm one of those weird people. But I agree with you. If you want to engage with it, most people want to don't even want to have that conversation.
Nicole Talarico (26:46)
Thank you.
So you've got to be able to have that flexibility of being able to get up and go if you want to. That transparency at the beginning and that's what I used to do with my own children but that's also what I would recommend to families that were really struggling with communicating and setting boundaries. And I would say, look, the reality is you can give it a go. And I think sometimes language is not something that, know, teenagers don't want to talk. So how do they communicate?
Kristi McVee (26:57)
Yep, to move.
Nicole Talarico (27:19)
by text. I'd say send some key information by text. If it's dealing with, if it's trying to address promiscuous behaviour or sneaking out at night or taking alcohol and other drugs, it'll be key little messages of how do you be safe if you're going. Yeah.
Kristi McVee (27:20)
Yeah.
Yeah.
during it. Yeah
if you're going to take the risk then how do you do it safely?
Nicole Talarico (27:44)
Exactly right and know that at the end of the day whatever happens nothing's ever going to be bad enough that you can't tell me and I can't help you. It doesn't mean that I might not be angry, disappointed, I can be all of those things. How do you go out of the house with a safety plan and what does that look like and how user-friendly is it for the child that you're working with?
Kristi McVee (27:52)
Yep. Yep.
Yeah.
Yep, yep, yep. I agree with you 1000 % because the thing is, like we act like we never did anything. Like people go around treating teenagers and young people like you didn't sneak out or you didn't tell your parents you were here when you were over here or you didn't drink before you turned 18. We act like we're superior.
Nicole Talarico (28:15)
you
This is the
Kristi McVee (28:28)
when actually we did all of those things right but we did them without the support of someone who could they we could talk to and share with and I'm not saying we could greenlight anything right I'm not saying you say to them you can do whatever you want free for all but I'm saying if you've got a young person who you can't even like have a sit down and have a safety conversation with and they're not freaking out or telling you to rack off or they like I don't have time or I don't want to hey I realize on the weekend you're going to go and do something
Nicole Talarico (28:34)
Correct. Correct.
Kristi McVee (28:56)
Can you just keep this in mind and if you get stuck, make sure you can call me. And I did that, my daughter finished year 12 before and she's a February baby so she didn't turn 18 until this year. So she was going out partying on weekends and I just said, ring me, I will pick you up from anywhere. Just be mindful that you're only drinking your alcohol. you know.
Nicole Talarico (28:59)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Mmm. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah,
and this is the key to them being able to measure their own risk and even if they slip up a bit, you know, it's almost domino effect now down through our family because there's, well, the 21 year old is like second mother, then the oldest son, you know, the nearly 17 year old calls him and says, hey, you come get me.
Kristi McVee (29:34)
Hahaha
Yeah.
Yep.
Nicole Talarico (29:46)
So
it might not be cool to have your mum come and collect you, your 19 year old brother can come and get you. That's okay. So, you know, and if you don't have that luxury, you know, I would even say to clients, I would say, just make sure that they've got a phone that works or that, yeah, you've got credit. Like it's all those little things. Or you might not want to text or call me, but can you give me a thumbs up to say,
Kristi McVee (29:49)
elder brother.
Yeah.
Yeah, got credit.
Yeah, that you're safe
and okay. Yeah.
Nicole Talarico (30:13)
We're alive and breathing and I'm okay.
Keep your locations on, which again, even my own children, turn them off. โ Yeah, and I'm like, really?
Kristi McVee (30:21)
gosh, that's a rule
in our family. No one's, it doesn't matter where you are, what you're doing. like, again, it's interesting. Like people must think, I'm sure based on what I say, and I've been mulling over this because I've had a few really interesting comments on my socials lately, quite aggressive, like, because I said, and you'll know from working with the people you've worked with and the situations you work with.
a closed when there's multiple children or an adult and a child or a child in a device and there's a closed bedroom door, that situation is no longer considered safe. Now the reason being is is that because when we have multiple children in a bedroom, they could be looking at something inappropriate or unsafe, they could be doing something inappropriate or safe, unsafe. When you have an adult and a child, the child doesn't feel there's a power imbalance, the child doesn't feel like they can leave the room. And then the
we don't know what the adult is doing. And then if you add a child in a device, again, we've got so these are three really unsafe situations where it's not safe to have a closed door. But the way I said it is, I think I can't remember how I quoted it. But I said, in my experience as a detective, closed doors are unsafe. And I've had people jump up and down saying, you know, what about privacy, your red flags all over, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
Someone said to me what in the coercive control are you talking about? And I was like, I'm like, come on, watch the whole thing. It's two and a half minutes.
Nicole Talarico (31:46)
Exactly. And you know, the reality is a closed door is unsafe. How are you going to, you know, and I know my own children will constantly going, you know, there, there is, you can close the door, but that doesn't mean I'm not going to knock and annoy you or come in and ask you something or whatever. So it's not going to be unlimited contact without me.
Kristi McVee (32:10)
Exactly. I mean, look, I don't, I don't doubt that if you want to, you know, children need privacy, they need to be able to change in private, they need to go to the bathroom and toilet in private. But if you add a device in there, it's no longer a safe space because they who knows who's on the other end of the device. If you add another child or another adult and an adult who, you know, with a closed door, there's no reason for doors to be closed when we're safe. And I get, I get that there's some exceptions to that rule. But however,
Nicole Talarico (32:34)
They absolutely
Kristi McVee (32:39)
Anyway, they're jumping up and down on my socials at the moment.
Nicole Talarico (32:39)
But generally, it's practice.
Yeah, and often it's, you I find that when people jump up and down, it's because you've probably called out something that they know and they're not practicing.
Kristi McVee (32:51)
or they're
not, you know, they don't want to admit that that's actually true. look, you can't do anything right on social media. And like, we know that it's good and bad, it has its good and bad. But with me and with you, like, we're in the forefront of calling stuff out. You started the medical emergency bag, right? Because you knew that, so the thing is, is that you've been at the forefront of trying to protect kids through solutions and training for a long time.
Nicole Talarico (32:55)
That's right. That's exactly right.
Hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (33:20)
I think this is what makes it really hard. Sometimes when you're in the front of this, people are quick to tear you down and put you and say, it's not a problem here. โ Do you have you found that with what you've been? I mean, you were at the front of all of this child safety.
Nicole Talarico (33:29)
Yeah.
Yeah, and I think
have to say that, look, I think it's probably been helpful for me in that I had been in the sector for so long and I think had always been advocating for child rights for a long time and treating children as citizens. So I think when I started to actually
Kristi McVee (33:52)
Mm.
Nicole Talarico (34:01)
broach with services if I was mentoring them or if I was doing a training session or speaking at a conference. It was not a new concept for people to hear me advocating for the rights of children. So when I was then able to say, you know, there are a number of things that you've got to actually consider, you know, the risks have to be addressed. It was,
coming from a good space and foregrounding children in that. And so I really feel like for, haven't really, touch wood, I haven't really had anybody try and go, yeah, I really feel like I've actually, I feel quite lucky in that. I really feel like I've been championed in what I've been saying for a long time in this space. And so,
Kristi McVee (34:41)
push back.
Nicole Talarico (34:54)
When early childhood Australia asked me to be part of the rapid response task force, yeah, I actually felt like I was really pleased about that because even though I have consulted independently for so long, it was a nice way, you know, but I've been on the early childhood Australia. I've been involved with them for a long time through committees and groups, but it was a really
Kristi McVee (34:58)
Reveal.
Nicole Talarico (35:20)
great way to be able, you know, for people that had worked with me or had been involved with me over the last 30 years, I think that they know that generally I am really, really protective of teachers and educators in this space. And I don't want anything to happen to children, of course not, but I also recognise how the impact that that has on
you know, on educators when harm does come to children. So I think being able to really be really robust in this message now has, it's landing well because
Kristi McVee (35:52)
Yep.
Well, it's
a nod to all of your, all of the, it's like a tick and a nod and a like, hey, if you're a service that has engaged you over the last 30 years or 20 years, however long, it's like you are actually in the forefront of this. You're actually been doing this a lot longer than the average person because some of the services are like, you like you said, we said at the very beginning, like they're saying this is hard, this is too much, but actually there's services out there that have been doing this well for a long time.
And there's people out there that have been doing it. so the fact is that everything you've been saying has actually proven that. again, not a great feeling for us, but hey, this is actually really important because we know that these people are out there trying to infiltrate early childhood education and families. And they're there and they've always been there. It's just that they're making it, it became easier for them to be there.
Nicole Talarico (36:46)
Yeah.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (36:57)
And
so I think it's basically validating what you've been doing for so long and saying, hey, you're on the right path being your fan.
Nicole Talarico (37:10)
You know, it has been us, but I think also too, when there's people like yourself that are wanting to reach out and connect. And you know, I think when you're actually invested in solidarity and building connections and you're constantly growing, whether it be connections, knowledge, understanding, insight, you know, I think that that makes a difference too, because people don't...
perhaps look at us and go, okay, well, they've done their work and now they're just sitting back and saying, well, there you go. You know what to do. It's really a personable approach to this. And I think that's what people need because you need some level of, know, there needs to be some level of emotion in it for people to go, okay, they're personable and they're telling us this.
It lands differently. It's more powerful when you see people are, you know, they're continuously growing what they know and who they are.
Kristi McVee (38:09)
Yeah.
And they're not trying to hold it all into like, they're not trying to like my doing a golem in Lord of the Rings, you know, my precious, this is mine. This is my secret. This is my stuff. This is like literally, years ago, a couple of things were going through my head as you're explaining like how it's come about and stuff. And one of the things that was told to me years ago by a senior constable, first of all, he said to me, I'll straight out of the academy and he said, Christie,
Nicole Talarico (38:17)
It's hot. Yeah.
Kristi McVee (38:36)
It takes just as much, if not more energy to do to, to pretend you're doing the right thing and to fake and write the reports and do all of the things and not do the work than it is to just bloody do the work. So just bloody do the work. Like literally goes, and I mean, he was referring to policing and bad policing and the fact that some, some police officers would pretend that they'd gone and done all the work and pretend and try and write it off as best they could. But he said, just go and do the work.
because it takes less time and energy and it's not as hard as people make it out to be. you're going to learn. then the other thing that was popping into my head was the fact is that there is never enough people in this space. There is never, I learn differently to you. What I say is different to the next person. It doesn't matter if, and I have one of my really good friends in this space is also was a detective and was a, she's got an
Nicole Talarico (39:10)
And you're gonna know, you're gonna learn from it, right?
Kristi McVee (39:33)
but she's got a psych degree and a criminology degree. And she's, โ you know, she's amazing. She taught me in detective training. She's one of my great friends. And she said to me very early on when I left the police and was thinking about going into this space, she said, there's, there's more than enough. There's never enough for people talking about this. And that's how I've been since day one, I've gone, it doesn't matter who's teaching you it as long as you learn it. And so as long as someone, because if you really care about protecting kids,
Nicole Talarico (39:56)
So.
Kristi McVee (40:01)
then it's not about you. And I said that used to say this when I was releasing my book, when I was doing something, when I was speaking out loud, I would say it's not about me. It's about the kid I can protect. It's about the person who learned something that's going to protect them. It's not about me.
Nicole Talarico (40:10)
No, that's exactly right. Yes. And if one
more person learns one thing, then that's a better space.
Kristi McVee (40:20)
Yeah. One of the things I also wanted to say is, I really feel, and remember, I'm pretty sure you know the stats, you know, it's only about 2 % that children get harmed actually in early childhood education. It's around 2%, right? I say this all the time. They're more likely to be harmed in the home or by a family member or someone that's actually in the family. Yet the spotlight is so massive.
shining on early childhood education and schools and I'm like and and for good reason because no one expects it there but I always try and throw this in when I get interviewed about it right I always throw it in I'm like well actually this is not the key issue the key issue is child at any harm to children and they're more likely to be harmed outside of that this space right that's I was trying to throw it into channel seven and channel nine
Nicole Talarico (40:46)
Yeah.
Right.
Absolutely.
Absolutely. Yeah.
Kristi McVee (41:07)
Because,
but the second part to that is that most people, I have specialized training. I have spent 10 years in the police. I spent being mentored and taught how to investigate this stuff, how to deal with this stuff. My mental health was affected by this stuff. Everyday educators, the people on the floor dealing with children's disclosures, having to talk to kids when they disclose.
Nicole Talarico (41:30)
Mm, mm,
Kristi McVee (41:33)
and having to deal with this stuff have not got the training that I have or had. And it's so unfair. And I say this to educators all the time, it's so unfair.
Nicole Talarico (41:33)
Yeah.
I I know. Yeah,
absolutely. And which is probably part of the reason why I am really passionate about supporting the teachers and the educators to ensure that a lot of their, and I will advocate for them to say, use part of your, if they have programming time.
I will say it's child safety isn't separate to that and nor is your wellbeing in being able to deal with that. So I will always say, even if it's 10 minutes, if you have hypothetically four hours, if you actually just block out 15 minutes where you can do your self care, that might mean that you get up and you walk, cause you're not counted in ratio, you go and walk around the block. You need to inject self care into part of that.
programming plan because you're going to be a better educator when you make time for that and prioritise time for that. And I also think part of that time needs to be about you growing what you know. And that might be readings or you don't even have to read academic stuff. can be anything that is going to give you, know, expand that brain a bit because that's going to actually
Kristi McVee (42:43)
Yes.
Nicole Talarico (42:56)
give you some of the joy that you also need as a professional. So there's two,
Kristi McVee (43:02)
don't take
them seriously enough like honestly the early childhood like I said you could you could not pay me I would rather wrestle a drunk on Friday night in the middle of the friggin city then go and be an educator and I love kids Nicole it is terrible and they're not given enough respect and enough nothing or pay
Nicole Talarico (43:09)
Thank
That's right, but you can't work.
or pay or... right?
Kristi McVee (43:25)
I
Nicole Talarico (43:25)
pay
Kristi McVee (43:25)
swear I will jump on a soapbox and say they deserve way more money and I do say this all the time because we have we have relegated it to this like it's below teaching it's below everything tell me any other person in this world who deserves better quality care than children
Nicole Talarico (43:45)
And you know, when you and I think that's why I have been banging on for so many years about children are citizens now and how are you supporting that in your spaces and what opportunity are you giving them to be able to have a say in the local community? How are we supporting this? Because children don't just grow up and go on to be able to engage in the social world. You know, a lot of my work, particularly this year,
has been focusing on looking at power. I'm actually doing a presentation for New South Wales Family Daycare tonight online, but it's looking at power in play and how do we diffuse and look at some of those moments that do come up in play where there is a power imbalance. know, years ago, 30 years ago, we used to call that pack play. That's not pack play, that's a group of children that are getting some
level of dominance over others in the space. So how are we uplifting those that are your noted, you know, you've got to be attuned and you've got to notice and you've got to sometimes be able to lean in with curiosity and be curious and wonder about what you're hearing and what you're seeing. So children not only get to hear that, hang on, I don't need to be bossed around like this, but also that
means that you're not thinking about the rights of the other people in your space. And I really am really focused on that at the moment because I just, half of my social posts are about advocating for Femicide and I did a training as you know this afternoon on
Kristi McVee (45:10)
Hmm.
Nicole Talarico (45:32)
you know, what does care and wellbeing and what does child-centered practice look like after fatal family homicide? And, you know, there's so much family violence that we need to be working with intentionality in our curriculums with the youngest of citizens to give them a safe, secure platform that they may not get anywhere else, where they can explore, you know, gender roles in a safe space because
Kristi McVee (45:54)
Yes, exactly.
Nicole Talarico (46:00)
you know, children come in with bias. just do. Everybody has bias. So we've got to give them a safe, secure opportunity to play in the dramatic play spaces and be curious about what we're hearing because it might be something like, you know, and I often say to educators, what barriers are you placing between what you truly see because of your own bias?
Kristi McVee (46:27)
Yes,
you're unwritten biases. know, they're under the surface. You don't even know you have them. And they're from your families and your own experiences. I mean, I have them, you have them, everyone has them.
Nicole Talarico (46:41)
I always say don't be afraid of them because they'll pop up when you least expect it. It's how you find them all the time.
Kristi McVee (46:44)
No, all the time. And when
you're aware of them, you're like, fuck. Why did I say that? That's not me. But that's something that I was taught. One of the biases that I have that is actually not mine and my daughter calls me aunt or aunt is whenever and she, you know, she's her own adult. She comes out dressed like a certain way or like with certain clothes and my mother comes out and I'm like, shit.
Nicole Talarico (46:50)
and you're like, oh my god, I do not.
Right?
Kristi McVee (47:12)
And like I try really hard to like un- can program that and uncondition that, but that conservative Catholic, you know, belief system still comes out and I've got no problems with that, but she's her own individual who gets to choose and I shouldn't have any say in that.
Nicole Talarico (47:27)
know but there's also that flip side that you also know what's out there right. You know and I am a strong old family, I'm a really strong feminist and I am probably more wild than any of my children but I also know that you know you got to have your wits about you because
Kristi McVee (47:31)
I know. โ
You got
to know what's out there. Like again, be prepared. There's a saying like prepare, you know, prepare one, the person who's prepared is the person who succeeds or something like that. can't remember the full quote, but you know, like for me, you know, we do know that and sometimes it does. But again, like sometimes we need to like let kids learn for themselves without our biases in it. you know, in the early childhood setting, we don't actually have to, there's not
You know, we have to step in when it gets dangerous or when it gets harmful or when everyone's not safe. But again, some of the things that we teach like bodily autonomy, consent, know, consideration for others and all of these things, these are lessons that should start early, early on.
Nicole Talarico (48:30)
Absolutely. know, consent we know is something that adults, how many campaigns have they had to put on the TV about consent is not right. And consent and people say, well, how do we do that in early childhood? There's consent in everything. What you want to
Kristi McVee (48:39)
Consent is in everything.
โ is it okay?
Can I? Would you like help? Would you? Do you want this?
Nicole Talarico (48:49)
How
do we do that with babies and toddlers? Easy. They'll tell you. You'll know when they're not happy about something. Their body language will tell you and some children don't know how to place a boundary. So we've got to support them with the language or the tools and it's about can I help you with this? Would you like a hand? Exactly.
Kristi McVee (49:09)
Would you like to do it yourself?
look at you go. You're doing a great job. Well done.
Nicole Talarico (49:15)
Yeah, see, you
know, and I hear what you absolutely hear what you're saying too, where sometimes, you know, I know he's my own child. You know, I've always, you know, probably again, because I know what's out there. And I know little pockets around Melbourne where I know there is, you know, hotspots, right. And so one of them said that he's joined the gym and I said, how are you getting there from school, catching the train to a certain station and then the bus? And I said,
Kristi McVee (49:29)
Yeah.
Nicole Talarico (49:40)
And instantly, you know, it's how you quiet down those biases to not stifle someone. And I went, all right, the youngest of four, I probably wouldn't have allowed this with the others, but okay. And I'm literally saying, okay, but when you're walking through the train station, have you got your face glued in your phone? Can you please? Correct, right? And I'm saying all of these things. I said, you need to have your wits about you.
Kristi McVee (49:59)
Have you got earphones in?
Nicole Talarico (50:05)
And have you ever noticed the police or other people that you could get help? Yep. Don't have your phone and not pay attention. Put things away. Just be mindful of how you can.
Kristi McVee (50:17)
Well, be confident in that moment. know, all
of those. And it's so funny because I, my daughter brought this up the other day. She said to me, yeah, where I parked my car for work, it's actually, and it's getting darker now and everything. She's like, I, and I have to be careful when I'm crossing the road and when there's people in the car park because they're not all the people that I work with. And I'm sometimes walking over there on my own and I'm like, โ
Nicole Talarico (50:29)
Yeah.
You
Thank you. โ
Kristi McVee (50:43)
like you
know, you know, like mother fear. And I was like, okay, have you considered maybe parking closer to the front? You're there the earliest, like, could you park at the front? Could you make sure that someone's with you when you're walking across? And like, how do you have and because they have to navigate this stuff, right?
Nicole Talarico (50:45)
wrong.
And I think when you first go, no, you're not going there. If I had said you're not going there, probably would have gone there anyway, even though the where are you, I can see. But it's about that whole like with your daughter, navigating, co-creating. I'm really big on co-creating the risk safety plan.
Kristi McVee (51:14)
Hahaha
High-crating.
safety.
Nicole Talarico (51:26)
Right,
let's co-create what could happen. How could it happen? Where the risk is. Can we bring that risk down a bit with some ideas on how to bring your safety up? I'm not saying don't do it. What I'm saying is how can we make it safer for you? Because I know you want to.
Kristi McVee (51:42)
Yeah,
and that's a really good, I think for parents, like, you're, we can't say, like, I grew up with no, right? All, everything was a no. And if you did it anyway, or, you know, you just hid it from your parents. I think from my experience and what I've seen in the police with parenting and young people is that if your child is, sometimes you can talk through, talk it through, and maybe it is a no in the end because they can't find a safe way to do it.
and they choose not to do it because they realize it's not safe. But that's about having those conversations and talking it through and going, is there a way to do this so far? Like when my daughter went on leavers, I was like, I didn't want her to go on leavers because I was like, there's all these toolies, there's all these idiots, like the drinking and all of this stuff. And she wasn't 18 yet, but.
Nicole Talarico (52:12)
Correct. Yeah.
huh, huh.
Yeah, I know.
Kristi McVee (52:31)
We talked it through. was like, is there any way to make me feel more comfortable? Like she didn't, she's a kid that contacts me all the time, but she didn't contact me all week. And I was like, holy crap, what's going on? And I had to send her a message a couple of times, like, just like, are you alive?
Nicole Talarico (52:40)
Bye.
Yeah, yeah. Well,
it'll make you feel better to know that because I, the, when's my daughter, I haven't finished social work when she went because she's too old. It must have been, yeah, it must have been my son because he finished. Yeah, it would have been. They all blend in, but he was going.
schoolies and he was going to Byron and I knew from my daughter going that a number of things had happened you know drink spiking and the needle pricks and all of these things and so I would be trying to drink in anything that you're not taking the lid off yourself or opening the can yourself and the other thing was I said it'll make you feel better I said hey I'm a social worker now do you want me to come be a red is a red frog or a green frog whatever it is and they're like absolutely not.
Kristi McVee (53:12)
Yeah. How scary.
Yeah.
Nicole Talarico (53:32)
And I said, okay, but can you just find out where they are because they'll help you.
Kristi McVee (53:36)
Yeah, we have a
really good program in WA. Yeah, so in Western Australia, they one of the spots is Dunsborough, which is south near the Margaret River, right? They have so to be able to go into the Leaver Zone, it you have to catch a bus in and they have to catch a bus out. The bus goes to all of their accommodation spots like they've got special accommodation spots. They have a special armband. They had like
Nicole Talarico (53:39)
Yeah?
Yeah, right.
Kristi McVee (54:02)
all of those, I don't know what they're called here, like they had special people, but like thousands of people, thousands of like support the kids. didn't even, didn't, because once I knew more about it, here's the other thing I think learn about and help your child understand where they could. In the end, she had the best week. She had her mates there. She had, they looked after each other. you know, like she had the best week. I'm so glad she had that experience because
It was one of those tickets, like, you know, I never had that experience. I was working full time by then, you know, like.
Nicole Talarico (54:34)
people remember it. That's true. They... can do it safely.
Kristi McVee (54:36)
Yeah, but you can do it, you can do it.
I think that's one of the things that, you know, I think hiding from things we fear, hiding from the problem, not being brave and going, right, this is here, we've got to do something about it. And whether it be with your own children, whether it's in your service, whether it's in your family, whatever.
Nicole Talarico (54:58)
You just gotta actually sit with the uncomfortable.
Kristi McVee (55:02)
I think that is the best way we can both explain what we do. We sit with the uncomfortable and tear the rule book.
Nicole Talarico (55:10)
โ
That's it and then do something about it. Yeah, that's it.
Kristi McVee (55:13)
and then rerod it.
How can people find out more about what you do, Nicole? If they want to engage you or if they want to read your book?
Nicole Talarico (55:23)
You know, I'm often posting great resources, great tools. If I'm out and about in services and I see really fantastic things happening or, yeah, so you can follow Talarico Consulting on Insta or Facebook. Yeah. And otherwise LinkedIn, I'm on LinkedIn.
Kristi McVee (55:31)
Yeah, you share them.
I'll put it in the show notes.
Nicole Talarico (55:43)
I think I haven't checked my Google rating. I should because I always get spam every day saying, Hey, do you want to improve your Google search right? No, I think Google my name, I might pop up, but otherwise, look, who knows accordingly to the spam that I get daily. I'm not sitting at the top there with my strike rate. So who knows?
Kristi McVee (55:51)
Ha ha ha ha.
I'm sure you will pop out.
Who is? Who is? They just like to tell us that we're not...
Nicole Talarico (56:12)
They're busy to check stuff like that. Anyway, thank you so much. I have loved having this chat with you. should we do a photo for the socials while we're on it?
Kristi McVee (56:16)
Well
I'm just going to, yeah, well, we will do a photo. I'll share everything, but I'm just going to press stop in a second. thank you so much. And I will make sure everyone knows how to find anything that you're doing, your medical emergency bags. I reckon there's some great things coming out for you next, in the next 12 months. I have a feeling.
Nicole Talarico (56:27)
yeah.
I have a feeling about you too.
Kristi McVee (56:43)
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (56:42)
Nicole said something near the end of this conversation that I keep coming back to. We sit with the uncomfortable and then we do something about it. That's it. That's the whole job. Not waiting until something goes wrong, not doing the bare minimum to tick a box, but actually getting in there, having the hard conversations and doing the work before you need to. Whether you're a parent, an educator or someone who works with kids in any capacity, this episode is a reminder that safety isn't something that just happens.
It's something that you build. You can find Nicole over on Instagram and Facebook at Talarico Consulting or connect with her on LinkedIn. I'll link everything in the show notes anyway, including her book, which I genuinely think should be on every educator's shelf. Thanks for being here. Thanks for having these hard conversations with us and I'll see you in the next episode.
