Kristi McVee (00:00)
Today I'm sitting down with Deb McPhedran, a mom, a grandmother and a survivor turned advocate who knows firsthand the devastation child sexual abuse leaves behind. After her own children disclosed abuse, after her own children disclose abuse, Deb didn't fell silent.
She co-authored a stunning Australian children's book called Secret or Surprises to give families the language and tools to have these conversations early. But there's more to Deb's story than you might expect. And what she shares today is something every parent needs to hear.
Kristi McVee (00:28)
Good morning, Deb. Thank you so much for agreeing to first of all, come on to the Conversations with Kristi podcast, but I believe this might be your first podcast.
Deb McPhedran (00:37)
It is definitely
my first podcast, yep.
Kristi McVee (00:41)
I am very honored to be your first podcast interviewer and to talk to you about, you know, what you're here for and basically what you're doing. So I don't want to ruin your story or get things wrong. So I like to leave ⁓ my guests to explain who they are, what they do and why they're in, you know, doing the advocacy or the work that they're doing. So
Could you please tell my listeners a little bit about you and how you got into the advocacy work that you're doing now?
Deb McPhedran (01:11)
Sure. My name is Deb. I'm a parent. I'm a grandmother. And the reason I got into this is actually that about five years ago, my oldest daughter rang me one day and said, I have something disturbing to tell you. And I did not ever imagine that she would say what she was going to say. And her first thing was, I think that
I was sexually abused when I was a child. ⁓ And I was just, I was so horrified because I had absolutely no idea. And I think she only said to me, I think I've been abused because she was softening the blow for me more or less. And as it turns out, she definitely was. And as the years have passed more and more,
incidents of abuse have come out. So it basically happened throughout her entire childhood. And then a year after that, my son told us that it had also happened to him. So ⁓ it was a pretty hard time back then. ⁓ At times it still is, and I'm sure all parents would say that. But yeah, so what came from that was we decided that we wanted to write a book.
Kristi McVee (02:16)
Yeah.
Deb McPhedran (02:24)
because we felt that there was a niche there for Australian children to have an Australian book. So we wrote the book using Australian animals and we told the story through them rather than through a human ⁓ storyline. Yeah.
Kristi McVee (02:40)
Yep.
Amazing.
I bought your book and I gave it away and the book's called Secret and Surprises and it is an absolutely stunning book and I mean the fact that this has all happened in five years that's amazing that you know the process of hey there's we need to have these conversations in our families it's happened to us how do we help is amazing too.
Deb McPhedran (03:07)
Yep, for sure and that's the thing, you know, once it's happened to you and you see the impacts of it, you want to make sure that it doesn't happen to anyone else. And for me as a parent, I wasn't able to prevent that. So it's a really empowering thing for me to be involved as a woman, as a parent too.
Kristi McVee (03:26)
Yeah, yeah, I mean, the first question I've got is, that, hindsight's a wonderful thing. And I know from my experience of interviewing children and talking to parents and families, a lot of parents don't realize some of the warning signs and symptoms of abuse in their family.
it's mainly because we don't think it will happen to us, right? So was there anything like, in your own, like looking back now that you go, that was a warning sign and we just didn't know better at the time.
Deb McPhedran (03:59)
There were probably a few things.
There was a big addiction to pornography. And I obviously I didn't like that because it was an addiction. But I didn't know that it was a warning sign of abuse. So that was one thing. I did have concerns about Jess when she was a young child. There were...
things like not settling into school well, having some trouble with friendships, behavioral things that ⁓ she would come home and she would be angry at me. And I didn't know why. And I mean, we have discussed that since then. And she has said to me, you were my safe person. You know, I came home and I was able to be me and let things out to you. But I didn't know that.
Kristi McVee (04:35)
Yeah.
Deb McPhedran (04:47)
So I did actually take her to a child psychologist for a little while, but that didn't last long. She more or less refused to go. And I think that that order probably came from up higher. Yeah, yeah. So yeah, there probably were signs, but ⁓ I don't think that any parent expects that this will happen in their family.
Kristi McVee (05:01)
our views on basically.
noise.
No, it makes it super hard because we're meant to be able to trust the people in our family and when it's someone so close it kind of takes the wind out from your sails and stuff like that and I wonder, you know, it's not something we used to talk about either.
Deb McPhedran (05:17)
Mm.
Kristi McVee (05:27)
Prior to that, we didn't talk about it openly. I don't think in the last six years it's actually increased since I left the police in 2020. I think that's when we started really focusing and talking about it. However, it's always been there.
Deb McPhedran (05:40)
Yeah. And I mean, my children were born in the 1990s. And at that time, it was never talked about, ever talked about. And if it was, if there were any warnings at all, it was about stranger danger. So you thought that if everything was okay at home, you know, and you knew where they were going, then you knew that they would be safe. And it actually turns out that that wasn't true.
Kristi McVee (05:46)
It wasn't normal to talk about.
Yeah, yeah. I applaud you as a family just how much you have obviously.
First of all, a lot of parents in your position, I know I've spoken to a lot of survivors, a lot of parents in your position would have gone, don't be silly. Wouldn't have hurt being, wouldn't have taken what was being said and listened to it too. even today, survivors say, you know, they can't talk to their parents or can't tell their parents what happened to them. So the fact, I take my hat off to you because, you know, listening to Jess and having that conversation with her and being open to hearing what she told you.
You know, that's a big thing. That's helping her and helping you at the same time because you needed each other, right? Like as a family, you need each other.
Deb McPhedran (06:44)
Yeah,
yeah, that's for sure. Yeah. I have to confess though, there is some things that I just, you know, she's very active on social media, as you know, and sometimes I start to see something and I just...
Kristi McVee (06:57)
Yeah,
It's too confronting sometimes and because you were in it and she's your baby, like it's easier to see it from someone else than it is from your own child and to be, you know, to sit with that idea of what's happened or I think, you know, it's okay as long as you're not denying it and you haven't so.
Deb McPhedran (07:00)
Yep.
Mm.
No, no.
Kristi McVee (07:15)
You know,
that's the amazing part. What part of you, I mean, you said the addiction to pornography. So the offender was addicted to pornography. So that was a big warning sign. A lot of people don't realize that that's a warning sign. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Deb McPhedran (07:31)
No, I didn't. I did feel it was unhealthy, but
I didn't feel that it never crossed my mind that it could be a sign of child sexual abuse, that they might be that person.
Kristi McVee (07:43)
Yeah, yeah. Well,
from my experience, I've seen a lot of offenders who have large pornography addictions and they have large, you know,
what am I trying to say, hard drives and things with pornography on it. then, you know, so it's for me, if I hadn't worked in the industry I was working in, if I hadn't been a detective investigating, I probably wouldn't have known that either. But yeah, that is a massive warning sign. Was there any other relationship stuff that you knew of that maybe sort of indicated the abuse? I think where I would like to try and help other parents and other people understand is that
The perpetrators do it very well. They will, gaslight us, make us feel like we're, it's more that we're overreacting. Was there any of that, those signs or those conversations happening in your relationship or, you know, relationship?
Deb McPhedran (08:34)
Yeah,
not in terms of anything to do with the children, but there was definitely gaslighting. It was a strategy that was used on me. I was basically shut down over anything in the relationship that I came up that I might've been concerned about in terms of our relationship together and yeah.
I mean, everyone knows what gaslighting is. So, you know, I was made to think that I was being stupid, that that couldn't be true, blah, blah, blah. And then having, yeah, making it up. And then it was turned around and I felt sorry. I had done something wrong. So I was very controlled within the relationship. ⁓ I would say that it was probably an abusive relationship toward me.
Kristi McVee (09:01)
Thank you.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yep.
Deb McPhedran (09:20)
but I did not ever dream that it also would extend to the children in any way, which maybe is a stupid thing, I don't know, but I just didn't see it that way.
Kristi McVee (09:25)
Yeah.
It's not,
I don't think it's stupid. It's just that we don't know what we don't know, right?
And so when we don't know and no one's ever brought these conversations up or had these conversations or you've never heard anyone talking about it, how are we meant to know these things? We just think that we're in a relationship with someone who makes us feel a certain way and doesn't like, you know, that we can't do anything right in. I think what you're describing sounds a bit like coercive control. And we're only just talking about coercive control now in the media. And people are finally discussing coercive control. Yet coercive control is
Deb McPhedran (09:35)
Hmm
Kristi McVee (10:04)
one of the biggest things that happens in a domestic violence relationship or an abusive relationship. So you know that controlling and making someone feel less than and putting them down is a way to control them.
Deb McPhedran (10:17)
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And I really felt like by the time I was away from that person, I felt that I had no self-confidence at all. I had lost me. Yeah.
Kristi McVee (10:27)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And
that's another way to actually make. So, you know, when it when someone is doing that to someone, that's another way to control them is to basically strip them away of their autonomy, their independence and make them feel less than because then they're less likely to fight back or less likely to argue less likely to question what they're doing. Does that sound about right?
Deb McPhedran (10:50)
Yep, yep, for sure. Yeah, that
sounds exactly right. Yep.
Kristi McVee (10:54)
Yeah,
and like when you do come out of that fog, because it is, it's like you're in, there's two people, like the person before and the person after, you you're trying to survive in that relationship and then you come out and you're literally walking around with this like warped reality.
Deb McPhedran (11:11)
Yep, yep, for sure, yep.
Kristi McVee (11:13)
Yeah.
Did you, afterwards, after you were out of that relationship, I know a bit about Jess's story because she's been on the podcast. Did you have any suspicions when the kids were spending time with their perpetrator and stuff like that?
Deb McPhedran (11:28)
No, no, and that is what makes it harder for mums, I think. They were always happy to go and very protective. So it wasn't something that really stood out for me. No, no.
Kristi McVee (11:38)
Yeah.
And
looking back on that, and I'm sure you and Jess have talked about it, like is there a reason why they were like that with their perpetrator?
Deb McPhedran (11:54)
why they were protective or...
Kristi McVee (11:55)
Yeah, yeah, like was there something going on? we, I think what I'm, what I mean is it's obviously that there was some grooming, some abuse happening to that, well, obviously abuse happening, but you know, like that mind stuff, you know, that we don't, we talk about the sexual abuse, but we don't talk often about the, like the mental abuse that goes on with when sexual abuse happens and when there's abuse in a family.
Deb McPhedran (12:06)
Yep.
Yeah.
Yeah, okay. Well, they were threatened. They weren't allowed to tell what was happening. Those threats were quite severe too. And I think that...
can't find the right words. I think... Yeah. I think that they had just enough fun that it was mixed up. There might be fun times, but then there weren't fun times. And they probably didn't ever know what they were going to get. So they were hoping the best.
Kristi McVee (12:32)
Yeah, that's okay. I don't have the right words all the time. I'm like, can you? ⁓
Yeah.
Deb McPhedran (12:56)
when
they went there and I guess dealing with it as it happened.
Kristi McVee (13:01)
Yeah, and when it's, and sadly, when it's a parent, know, like I've said this before, that the person who like, we can still love our, our abusers, we still love people who hurt us, unfortunately, and as a child, we still love our parents, we still love our family, our grandparents, they can still harm us, and we can still love them because, you know, we just don't want them to do that. But we love the person, right? So it's such a confusing place to
Deb McPhedran (13:11)
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (13:27)
be in for the child but since you found out and since you've obviously you're now an advocate for this you know talking out about it and you're you know you're trying to help parents especially parents like yourself who you're literally blindsided by this disclosure right like what can you say to parents who are listening if you know their child comes to them and says I need to tell you something
Deb McPhedran (13:44)
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (13:51)
Obviously you hope that it's not to the extent that you had to, your kids went through, but what would you suggest to them?
Deb McPhedran (13:58)
I think that we just always need to be there for them and they need to know that we are always there for them, that if they have something they want to talk about, they'll be heard, they'll be listened to and they'll be helped. And if I had had that opportunity, gosh, I wish I had had that opportunity, but the fear, there was too much fear there for them to be able to tell me. So I think that would be the biggest thing for me is to keep your kids close.
not hovering close, but close and just have them know that they're loved and supported and safe with you and they can tell you anything and you'll believe them.
Kristi McVee (14:25)
Okay.
Yeah,
yeah, yeah. Even as adults, like, because I mean, I'm sure you've probably educated yourselves or yourself on, you know, some of the stats, you know, one in three girls, one in five boys will be abused, but also the average length of time that someone comes forward is 24 years, 30 years for men, some men never speak up at all.
Deb McPhedran (14:36)
Yeah, even as adults.
Kristi McVee (14:53)
And some women never speak up. And most people don't report to police. It's like 84 % won't ever go to police, 99 % for men. So there's a lot of people out there that are probably like you, not aware. And then second of all, when that does come to light, there's not really many options other than to try and help each other get through it.
Deb McPhedran (15:02)
Yep.
Mm.
Yeah, yeah, for sure. And I think part of the issue is too that you don't, a lot of people don't realise that they're actually being abused, children or adults. I was groomed by a high school teacher. It started when I was 15 and I was actually in a relationship until I was about 23 with that person. And I don't think I realised it was abuse until my eldest, Jess, was 15.
Kristi McVee (15:37)
Wow.
Deb McPhedran (15:43)
And I looked at her and I thought, there's no way. Yeah, there was no way I was adult enough to be involved in what I had been coerced, forced, whatever, into at the age of 15.
Kristi McVee (15:44)
I was abused.
tricked into, manipulated groomed. Wow, Deb. So let's talk about that because I think a lot of young people, a lot of young people get, you know, groomed and manipulated into believing they're in a relationship with an older person. did anyone, well, first of all, you didn't realize and it wasn't, I mean, I think that's what happens to a lot of parents. I don't know about you, but a lot of parents have their kids and then their kids get to the age that
Deb McPhedran (15:58)
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (16:22)
something has happened, like they've been abused and they're like, Oh my gosh, I was abused because they realize how little and innocent and how it's just not right.
Deb McPhedran (16:31)
Yeah, yeah, exactly. So ⁓ from the time I was 15, I was, you know, traditional grooming methods used. I was told I was beautiful, gorgeous, smart, different, this, different to all the others. And, you know, you don't expect that from a teacher, of course. And I have to say, wow, yeah.
Kristi McVee (16:50)
that any adult really any adult who's
talking to 15 year olds like that seriously.
Deb McPhedran (16:55)
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah. So it started with that and then there were gifts. ⁓ Yeah, back in my day, records. Long time ago. You know, soft toys, that sort of stuff, cutesy kind of stuff. And ⁓ it progressed from there, obviously, all the way through to, you know, being in a relationship that in the end, I was just, I just ended up.
Kristi McVee (17:01)
Wow.
Wow.
Deb McPhedran (17:21)
walking out at 23 and thinking to myself, I'm not doing this anymore, I'm out. And off I went, but up to that point, I was controlled. Yeah.
Kristi McVee (17:34)
Yeah,
wow.
And this is the thing, a lot of young people, because we haven't done a very good job of informing them about grooming and about healthy relationships and coercive control. And it's not, it's not parents' fault because we weren't talked to, it wasn't something we talked about either, like with our parents, right? So your parents didn't say, hey, that older man shouldn't be talking to you like that. They probably weren't even aware of what was going on. But yeah, it's crazy. And now we're having these conversations. That's why talking about secret
Deb McPhedran (17:57)
Mm.
Kristi McVee (18:05)
and surprises talking about you know gift giving and making you know love bombing which is what that person did initially and making you know and the fact that there's such an age gap i'm sure you know any major age gap for a teenager but like so many young people feel because it makes them feel special and it makes them wanted and love and you know if you don't understand that you know if it comes from someone who's older if it comes from you know
Deb McPhedran (18:13)
Yep.
Yeah. Yeah.
Kristi McVee (18:33)
are all things that aren't safe and healthy and you know there's an imbalance of power.
Deb McPhedran (18:38)
Yeah, yeah, for sure. And of course I was told not to tell. And you know, I was a I was a late bloomer. And I don't think I'd even been kissed. So, and that's 15,
Deb McPhedran (18:51)
how it began was that I was on the swimming team and I got off at a lift home and there were a bunch of other kids too. And a few times we were all dropped off but one time I was the last one in the car and he pulled over and it was really creepy because I was so young I used to have bubble gum all the time.
and he said, can I have a bubble gum? And I said, okay. And he goes, no, I want you to put it in your mouth. So I had to hold the bubble gum in my mouth and then he took it and then he kissed. Sorry, that was the first thing. I know, so creepy, right? But you know, yeah.
Kristi McVee (19:23)
Wow.
is so gross! What the he-
But you don't know what you don't know. Like I
know that as a teenager, you know, and I've heard this from other teenagers too, when someone, when an older person, older man gives you attention, it's like kind of, yes, it feels creepy to begin with, but then you kind of, it kind of becomes normalized if it continues.
Deb McPhedran (19:51)
Yeah, and I think that it's like someone like that, it's like they're a pop star or something. I mean, that's probably taking it too far, but it's someone that you kind of look up to, ⁓ but you would never imagine that they might do something like that. So it was very confusing, ⁓ but it happened more and more often, not the same way, but ⁓ you know, kissing.
Kristi McVee (20:09)
Yeah.
Deb McPhedran (20:17)
And then it progressed from there, obviously, to sexual stuff. I was going to say a sexual relationship, but I know that's not right. That's not true because it's not a relationship. And that's what I think we need to remember too. Yeah, so it's.
Kristi McVee (20:25)
Yep.
What's the name?
Yeah.
Making opportunities for you to be alone with him.
Deb McPhedran (20:41)
⁓ I think so, but I also don't think I was the only one. So even though I ended up being in a relationship post-school with him, I do think that there were a number of other girls that he was doing the same thing to and had done in the past. Yeah.
Kristi McVee (20:46)
really?
It's amazing. And do you think any adults were aware at that time or was it very hush hush?
Deb McPhedran (21:06)
Well, it was very hush-hush, but I would be surprised if there weren't male teachers at that school, particularly who knew what was going on, because ⁓ I have actually done a little bit of Googling and there have been cases at my high school ⁓ that it was quite prolific at that school. Yeah.
Kristi McVee (21:24)
Wow, well then
that's the culture, isn't it? That's the culture of these teachers. They're it from it, like they're protecting each other.
Deb McPhedran (21:30)
Yeah,
yeah. And they all think, yay, go you, you know, a young teenager. Yeah. Which is really creepy.
Kristi McVee (21:36)
my gosh.
So really you thought you were in a relationship with this person until 23, ⁓ until Jess got to 15 and you realised that, hey, if someone did that to Jess, then this would be abuse.
Deb McPhedran (21:50)
Yeah, and how ill-equipped a 15-year-old is to deal with something like that. Absolutely. I mean, I know I was. ⁓ I know anyone now, I think it would be the same because you've still got that imbalance, the age imbalance, ⁓ the authority. Yeah.
Kristi McVee (21:55)
All 100%.
I mean there's legislation, I don't know about back when you were at school, but there's legislation that's meant to protect kids from that and yet it seems like
Deb McPhedran (22:14)
Mm.
Kristi McVee (22:16)
You know, it seems like we turn a blind eye or we're not involved enough or and I mean, I don't blame parents because a lot of this stuff hasn't been discussed. When I bring up power imbalance and age imbalances, you know, of more than three years, I get the odd person who's been married for 30 years and they're still with their height, like that, but they were 15 and he was 25 or when they got together, you know, like as a parent, wouldn't you be questioning why a 25 year old wants to date your 15 year old?
Thank
Deb McPhedran (22:46)
You would,
you would think so, but it didn't seem to, maybe it would happen more now that it would be questioned more now, but definitely back then it wasn't, no.
Kristi McVee (22:52)
Yeah, no, no. And that's
why it was normalized. Like parents saw it as, well, you know, it's just a relationship. They're old enough. But like you said, 15 year olds don't even, you know, if they were late bloomers, never been kissed, if they have that lack of confidence or they're in a place of like bad mental health or whatever it is, they're vulnerable.
Deb McPhedran (23:15)
Yep, yep, for sure.
Kristi McVee (23:16)
So what made you leave? Like what made you walk away from that relationship?
Deb McPhedran (23:21)
I think I was just sick of being controlled ⁓ and realised that I actually was being controlled. And I think I did then start to think about how early it had started and, you know, it was obviously starting to occur to me that that was a really wrong thing. I think I was groomed to think that I was lucky.
Kristi McVee (23:24)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Deb McPhedran (23:43)
you're lucky that I picked do you know what I mean? So it probably had started to sort of sink in as I grew older.
Kristi McVee (23:46)
Yeah.
that I wasn't as lucky as you think.
Deb McPhedran (23:53)
that I wasn't
as lucky as I thought, you know, and I get really mad when I think about it now because you know those beautiful years when you're a teenager and you're having the relationships with boys and you I didn't get that. I was so controlled that I never had that experience.
Kristi McVee (24:06)
you
Yeah, you didn't get to hang out with friends and be like the easygoing teenager.
Deb McPhedran (24:16)
Yeah!
Kristi McVee (24:17)
It's interesting, I reckon it would have been around 23 is when your prefrontal cortex fully develops or starts fully developing and you have that, there's a massive developmental leap in like the brain. So I reckon it was basically in line with that you would have possibly been developing, your brain was developing. then all of those things that you just said, like it just was like, I don't want to be controlled. I'm an adult. I don't have to listen to this.
Deb McPhedran (24:30)
Okay.
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (24:44)
you kind of would have had that moment of clarity because your brain would have been developing in that time frame. Yeah, so what do you reckon parents should be talking about with their kids in regards to all of this? I mean, you know, it happened to you as a teenager, but it's also happened in your family. I think.
Deb McPhedran (24:50)
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (25:03)
The beautiful thing of us talking about this now and sharing our stories is that we can help parents realize exactly what conversations they should be having.
Deb McPhedran (25:12)
Yeah, yeah. And that is another reason why we wrote Secret or Surprise, because from our experience, we wanted children to be able to recognise behaviours that were ⁓ unsafe. So unsafe touching, touching of private parts, ⁓ even touching in other areas of the body that makes them feel uncomfortable. So because you can't tell someone who it might be,
It can be anyone. It's not everyone, but it can be anyone. Yes. You can't tell them who it's going to be. So you need to teach them how it's going to make them feel. Is it going to make them feel sick in the tummy, uncomfortable? They might feel sad. They might feel confused. They might feel scared. So the book focuses on all of those sorts of feelings. And it also teaches them how to recognise a safe person.
Kristi McVee (25:41)
My favorite catchphrase. ⁓
Yeah.
Deb McPhedran (26:04)
and a safe person will make them feel calm, comfortable, heard, safe, loved, all of those things. So that was the main premise for the book. Also, obviously the secret or surprise in that children need to understand that some secrets always have to be told. And if they've been made to feel unsafe or scared, that secret has to be told.
And any child who is told you can't tell your mum this, big red flag. You have to teach your kids that if anyone wants them to keep a secret, it's not a good secret and they need to tell them.
Kristi McVee (26:42)
Yeah, yeah, exactly. And even just those, you know, they seem so basic to us because we now, obviously, advocate and talk about body safety and talk about those things. But that is exactly what could might be the changing.
The thing that changes a child from feeling like they can't tell anyone to being able to tell someone. And in my experience working in, you know, talking to kids and interviewing them, some of them came to me because someone had, you know, obviously mandatory reported and they weren't ready to talk or they didn't know that they were being abused. But when you taught them that, they used to come back and then tell you what had happened because they now knew that it was not okay, that it wasn't safe.
Deb McPhedran (27:21)
Yeah,
yeah. And that's, that was how we wrote the book actually. We sat down and we talked about it. And Jess in particular was able to articulate all of those things that she wishes that she had known back then, which actually was, it was a healing conversation actually to hear that. And we did have a few of those conversations while we were doing the book.
Kristi McVee (27:40)
Yeah.
Deb McPhedran (27:45)
And it was also quite confronting for me. ⁓ I've ⁓ gone down the rabbit hole and into guilt, absolute guilt. And I'm sure that all parents who are parents of children who have been abused would have that guilt. How could I not have known? How could I not have seen? But ⁓ we all know.
Kristi McVee (27:48)
Of course. Of course.
next.
Deb McPhedran (28:08)
how sneaky perpetrators are and they've got the threats in place, they've groomed everyone around them, they're a fun guy, they're a good guy, they like kids. So there's a lot of reasons why you don't see it.
Kristi McVee (28:23)
Yeah. Yeah. And look, at the end of the day, once you've realized that it's happened, once you take accountability for not being, know, not knowing what you didn't know, and then you really all guilt does is keep people trapped in trapped, basically, they can't move on, they can't become
you know, they can't work through their pain and their relationships and everything that matters. And the fact that you and your family have been able to do that and create something so important for families to have in their toolbox is amazing.
Deb McPhedran (28:56)
Yeah, thank you.
Kristi McVee (28:58)
And
you know, like I take my hat off to you because not everyone's brave enough to do that. And I know that your little is three brave hearts because it does take bravery, so much bravery. So I find it, ⁓ yeah, you don't realize, I don't think you realize how brave your family is.
Deb McPhedran (29:06)
Yes.
Mm, yep.
thank you. That's really nice to hear. It's been a journey, that's for sure. And the bravery hasn't come easily at times like today. Wanting to have my say and I did start a page on Instagram and I think that was how I reached out to you initially. It was called Mama Bear Alliance and
Kristi McVee (29:18)
Yeah. Yeah.
I know, I know.
Yeah.
Deb McPhedran (29:42)
I just wanted to be that mum who was there if anyone was in the same position as me who just needed that support and comfort and empathy because empathy is such a big thing. I've had comments from people like all mums know they just don't, they just won't admit it. They turn a blind eye, all of that sort of stuff and it's really hard to hear. ⁓
Kristi McVee (30:09)
Of course it is.
I think people feel, first of all, people feel so brave behind their screen to say whatever they think. And second of all, when people, I have comments on my page as well. Like I have negative comments and people saying, you're like this and that, like whatever they say. And a lot of the times I just look at it and go, wow, you're really triggered.
And really it comes from their wounded space because they didn't have, they obviously feel that way because someone's let them down or they've let themselves down. It is possible for people to not know because we don't know what we don't know.
Deb McPhedran (30:47)
Yeah,
exactly. Yep. The other thing I've had people say to me is why bother teaching kids this stuff? Why write a book like that and teach kids? Because no one's going to listen to them anyway. And I always come back to them. ⁓ it's, yep. And it's hard to come back to that, but you don't stop trying. You have to encourage your kids also to keep.
Kristi McVee (30:59)
You guys are the best story, isn't it?
Deb McPhedran (31:11)
You know, if they don't listen to you the first time or if you if you need to speak to someone else, do that because we can't just stop this education. We have to ramp it up, not stop it.
Kristi McVee (31:14)
you
I know. Yeah, I had someone on my page the other day say that, how dare you put the responsibility onto a three year old or four year old child.
What was the words that the person used that this is on, this is snake oil. You're a charlatan. How dare you. It was a real big rant actually. And ⁓ I was just like, it triggered me to begin with. was like, well how so? Like, and she's like, no, you tell me how so. show me this, show me the studies that prove that this is even work. So how dare you make a three year old responsible for advocating for themselves. And I said to, because it was about,
three year old child who had been getting taught body safety through my body safety cards and they had disclosed abuse by a family member. And the thing was is that, you know, I think they lost the actual, purpose of it is it's not a child's job to advocate for themselves. But if a child doesn't even know they're being harmed.
We don't want a child to go, my gosh, I've been abused and be hurt by that. But what we need them to do is this doesn't feel good, this doesn't feel comfortable, this doesn't feel safe. I need to tell my mom or my safe person. That's all it is. It's not them doing the work, it's them just speaking up because they know what to do.
Deb McPhedran (32:34)
Yeah, yeah, exactly. And it's empowering. It's really empowering for kids to have that strength and that knowledge that they do have a voice and they can speak up.
Kristi McVee (32:44)
Yeah, and and who they go to hopefully will be the one that sets like gets between them and the person harming them or making them feel unsafe. And you know, I think like you I keep going well, like, if I give up, how many kids are left like and parents, I just feel like that it just one child knowing this is better than no children knowing it. And I know the power has because the kids who
Deb McPhedran (32:53)
Mm.
Kristi McVee (33:08)
have this information, do speak up, they do get support, they do get help. Sometimes it's not something we can do something about all the time, because in similar cases like with your family, it is someone close to them, it is a family member, it is a parent. So sometimes it's not possible to keep them out of that harm's way, but knowing about it and speaking up might just help them. You just don't know, you can't control that.
Deb McPhedran (33:32)
Yep, exactly.
Kristi McVee (33:33)
Yeah, just keep doing what you're doing. Don't let those people, you get tougher and thicker skin as you go. Yeah, you do, you do. And if you don't know what to say, you log off social media for the day and you walk away and you come back in a few days time when you feel stronger. Honestly, that's how I used to get through it in the early days when people criticized me. I used to get so upset, like, Oh my gosh, it made me feel like they were a.
Deb McPhedran (33:35)
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, and you learn what to say. Yeah.
Yep.
Kristi McVee (34:01)
attacking me personally. And now I realized that when they make comments, yeah, they might be using me as the, you know, the target, but really, they're struggling on the inside somewhere with something that's happened to them or something that they believe. And my daughter, actually, my team daughter was the one who was like, Mom, everyone gets criticism, you just need to walk away and leave it or just block them and, you know, delete their comments. And I was like,
So yeah, so she was really good at telling me off.
Deb McPhedran (34:28)
They're all over
it, aren't they? The social media stuff, more so than someone older like me.
Kristi McVee (34:35)
Well, we're not used to saying things unless we mean it. I think for our generation, we didn't have social media growing up. So when we were growing up, if we said something to someone, it was to their face. And a lot of people today say things to people online, but would never say it to their face.
Deb McPhedran (34:41)
Yeah.
Yep, yep, exactly.
Yeah, true. But I also think that a lot of people are losing their inhibitions due to that social media thing and they are getting a little unkinder with their words sometimes.
Kristi McVee (35:07)
Totally.
There's a whole thing, it's called the online disinhibition effect. And it's exactly that. They basically think that when you're behind a screen, there's no law or no ⁓ one to police it. It doesn't feel like reality. There is this disconnect when you're online. And we can see that because it's what people, we see it because we're targets of it.
Deb McPhedran (35:13)
Yep.
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (35:32)
Well, thanks so much, Deb. How can people read your book or find your Mama Bear page or whatever it is?
Deb McPhedran (35:40)
We are on Facebook and Instagram and we are under Secret or Surprise with an underscore. Or our website is secretorsurprise.com.au where you can buy the book and we have a beautiful poster also with some nice affirmations on it for kids to reinforce that they are brave, strong and loved.
Kristi McVee (35:43)
Mm-hmm.
Yep.
Yeah, and it is a beautiful, stunning book. It's one of my favorite books that I've ever, and I gave it away because I was like, someone needed this more than me. And, but now I miss the book. Like it's just such a stunning book. So yeah, if you, if you've got little people, what age is the book for?
Deb McPhedran (36:18)
⁓ Four to ten. It will depend on the child's comprehension and understanding, but it's the kind of story that you can look at the pictures also and you can discuss how they might be feeling in those pictures and it will start a conversation as well as being a story.
Kristi McVee (36:20)
Yeah.
Yes.
Yeah, exactly. And that's what we want. We want kids to just be able to, yes, the story is important, but also having those conversations on the side of that story. You know, what could you do? How would that, how does that make you feel? Has anyone ever made you feel like that? Those are the conversations we want you to have with your kids. Well, have a love. Thanks so much, Deb. I know that this was a big deal and you've done it. ⁓
Deb McPhedran (36:45)
Mm.
Yeah. Yep.
Yep, definitely.
I've done it. ⁓
Kristi McVee (37:02)
Yeah, I'll make sure all of the information is in the show notes as well.
Deb McPhedran (37:05)
Great, well thank you for having me on too. It's been a pleasure. Thank you.
Kristi McVee (37:08)
You're welcome. You're welcome.
Kristi McVee (37:11)
Thank you so much to Deb for her courage and her honesty today. She did an amazing job sharing her family's story, but most of all, her story. You can find secrets or surprises at secretorsurprise.com.au or the links will be in the show notes or follow along on Facebook and Instagram at secretorsurprise. And if you're looking for more tools to help you start these conversations at home.
Head to my website, christiammcvea.com. There you'll find my conversations with kids body safety card deck designed to make having these chats a little easier. If this conversation has moved you, share it because someone in the world needs to hear it. I'll see you on the next episode.
