Kristi McVee (00:00)
Welcome back to Conversations with Kristi. Today I'm sitting down with Melanie Enders, psychotherapist, family constellations facilitator, and someone who brings both professional expertise and real lived experience to one of the most complex family structures we see today, the blended family. Blended families are the norm now. And yet the support available to parents navigating separation, new partners, and the emotional weight that lands on our kids.
still nowhere near enough. and I get into all of it, what children are actually communicating through their behavior, why parents in survival mode often can't see what their kids need, the damage that bowel mouthing a co-parent does to a child's internal world, and some beautifully simple tools to help children make sense of where they belong.
Mel and I get into all of it. What children are actually communicating through their behavior. Why parents in survival mode often can't see what their kids need. The damage that bad mouthing a co-parent does to a child's internal world. And some beautifully simple tools to help kids make sense of where they belong.
This one hit close to home for me. I grew up in a blended family. I've been through separation myself and I work every day with families where vulnerability opens the door to harm. So this conversation matters personally and professionally. Let's get into it.
Kristi McVee (01:11)
Hello everyone, welcome back to Conversations with Kristi. I'm with the lovely Mel. Mel Enders, who I connected with through my, another good friend, Victoria, and we've been chatting about the blended families. so Mel is a, I'm not gonna tell you who Mel is, she's gonna tell you who Mel is, but Mel has a lot of experience in helping coach people through, you know, separation, blending families together.
and helping families protect kids in that space. So Mel, thank you so much for coming and having a chat. I think this is a really important conversation because we have so many, well, blended families are the norm now. It's pretty much the normal, and I grew up in one, so I can totally relate to what we were about to chat to about.
Melanie Enders (01:57)
Thanks so much, Kristi for inviting me to this and hello to everyone that's listening to this today. And yes, I also have a very large complex blended family that I'm living in and doing parenting in and relationship in. And that's actually how I got into working with blended families because I could see how little support I could get. I didn't know where to turn to your
Kristi McVee (01:58)
Thank
Yeah.
Melanie Enders (02:23)
tell me how to do this blended family system. And there were no books around at the time. that's sort of how I actually entered that world. Yeah, out of my own need really researching, looking into reading lots, meeting lots of people and asking questions. And, but I'm also a therapist.
Kristi McVee (02:26)
Yeah.
Melanie Enders (02:40)
So I didn't just jump into that. I should add that in. I'm a therapist, I studied psychology and I'm a family constellation facilitator and trainer, which is not that well known in Australia yet, but I also run a school for therapists, teaching them how to work with blended families and family systems in general. So... ⁓
Kristi McVee (02:40)
Just add that on.
Melanie Enders (03:04)
That is the professional side, but the personal one is I have a blended family. Yeah.
Kristi McVee (03:09)
I love how you
were like, yeah, so I needed a, I needed help in this way and yeah, and I was looking for help and yeah, but I'm actually a therapist myself. So, you know.
Melanie Enders (03:18)
Yes, that's right. So it's lift experience and professional experience.
Kristi McVee (03:20)
Bye!
Well, you know, like sometimes when you go to therapy or you go to and I've been to a lot of therapists in 25 years, I have to admit to that because you know, I've needed them for my own experiences or for my relationship for my work, work stuff and, and, you know, some people, you know, some people don't have lived experience in what you're going through. it's, you know, therapists can
Melanie Enders (03:29)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (03:44)
give you, you know, maybe some tools and stuff, but they don't actually know how it feels to be in that situation. So when you have lived experience in the actual area that you need help in, that it actually gives a big can be quite impactful. So I think that's helpful.
Melanie Enders (03:59)
Yeah, totally.
Yeah, it's not just textbook data. And even in sub, I do a lot of supervision with other therapists and them coming back if even if they don't have lived experience, being able to talk to someone that's in it, but also works with it. It's yeah, it's a, it's an overlapping system really on all ends, which is blended family. It's several systems overlapping. And yeah, that comes with its very own.
Kristi McVee (04:05)
Yeah.
Melanie Enders (04:26)
works.
Kristi McVee (04:29)
Well,
let's dive into blended families because like I said, I grew up in a blended family. grew up with, initially my parents separated when I was seven and I had a step-parent on both sides or sorry, had a step, my parents started dating, then one of them became my step-parent, the other one was a step-parent sort of like, you know, and then people came in and came out and then I had extra step-family like.
Melanie Enders (04:41)
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (04:55)
older siblings and I've got half siblings and I've got all of these different family dynamics going on. It's a lot to navigate as an adult but even as a child like me as a child going through all of that you know kind of feel a little bit lost.
Melanie Enders (04:57)
Yeah.
Totally, yeah.
It's a very large structure and for children it's almost like a family gives a certain frame. It's a boundary, it's a frame and all of a sudden when parents separate the frame changes. All of a sudden I have two frames and the children often move between these two sets of houses, homes, frames and they have to adjust, fall back.
different rules, different moods, different language, different food. And then to make it more complex, there's new people coming into that frame. navigating that, that's right, it feels a bit lost. It's a common experience for a lot of children, unfortunately. And what I watch, even in myself, is that...
Parents often don't get the child experience. They are moving on faster than actually the child does and there's often an impatience and that's when often children go into it's almost like they're putting the brakes on to slow everything down because they need to adjust to this difference these movements right
Kristi McVee (06:17)
Well, and
just my own experience, no one asks you, no one asks you what you want. No, one says, Hey, is it okay if I start dating or is it okay if I introduce adult to you or, and I'm just talking from experience from our own experience. Cause you know, I remember, I remember pushing back on my mom, my dad, my step parents, these people were being introduced. I was quite.
Melanie Enders (06:20)
That's right. Yes, you don't choose two homes.
That's right.
Hmm.
Kristi McVee (06:44)
like, don't come near me. Like, how dare you? Like, don't, you're not my friend. You're not my mom kind of thing. And, and we get angry at kids for that. Like, I know I got in, I got in trouble, actually think I got smacked for being rude to someone. And I was like, ⁓ back in the eighties, by the way, everyone, back in the eighties when it was normalized. But, you know, like, and we don't, we don't ask kids, they don't have any control over this. So you wonder why kids feel like they're, like, they start showing you through behavior.
Melanie Enders (06:46)
Yes.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (07:13)
they're not okay because behavior is a form of language.
Melanie Enders (07:16)
Totally. Behavior equals language. That should be a mantra. Yeah. Totally. Yeah.
Kristi McVee (07:21)
Well, I say it a lot because a lot of
children will show us how they are, whether they're good, bad or otherwise, through their behavior. And so we have to pay attention to behavior because, you know, if they don't feel safe to tell us, they'll show us through behavior. So that's our first, that's our, yeah, right. I mean, sometimes they don't even understand what's going on. So their behavior is quite erratic and not really understandable, but
Melanie Enders (07:29)
Yeah. Yeah.
True, 100%.
Mmm.
Kristi McVee (07:48)
get to the bottom of it when you finally take time to slow down and make it have a conversation or, you know, help them regulate and whatever. Then you can get to the bottom of what's actually going on. And I think when, you know, families separate when things go wrong or when lives fall apart and in the moment, in the moment, like, parents don't realize because they're just trying to survive it. I reckon.
Melanie Enders (08:04)
Hmm.
Totally, it's
turmoil, it's like a wild storm that you're trying to navigate through of all these changes and emotions and finances and they really strip a lot back to very very existential fears and the whole nervous system gets into absolute survival mode and when we're in survival it's so contracted and small that
There's not much space left for emotional nurturing or holding a container for our children's emotions and holding them safe in that because we just got to survive.
Kristi McVee (08:49)
Yeah, I can relate to that because I actually
with my husband, yeah, when my daughter was five, we were separated. I was in the police. He wasn't living in the family home. He actually went to he moved out and moved away before work. And so I was at home. So my daughter doesn't even remember that we separated like she's 18 now. She asked me a few years ago. She's like, have you ever broken up? I was like, yeah, when you were five years old, she's like, what? I had no idea. And I
Melanie Enders (08:55)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yep.
Kristi McVee (09:16)
It was because I just like everything she wouldn't, I mean, she was five, right? So she wouldn't have understood when I was sad or upset or hurt or whatever. I was trying to keep the container. Like I knew that keeping it as normal as possible is all that mattered. And, you know, so I never showed her that I was upset. I never showed her that I was going through things, you know, it was after bedtime or I didn't talk about what was going on. was just like, dad's at work.
Melanie Enders (09:23)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (09:43)
and dad's away and you can talk to him on Sunday. So it was kind of like, and it's funny because she didn't know. And so she was like completely gobsmacked at 15 when she asked me the question and I gave her the answer and she's like, wow, you did a really good job because I had no idea.
Melanie Enders (09:46)
Mmm.
Wow, how good is that to hear that off your daughter?
Kristi McVee (10:03)
And no drama
around our parents ever.
Melanie Enders (10:06)
But it
is, you know, when adults separate and start off their own new lives, what happens in my observation of them, it often happens that there is a period of grieving before the ending, even though the children think, everything is fine. Mom and dad are still here. Yeah, they might ask. Some kids see the argument.
different when there's domestic violence. We're going to bracket that onto the side. That's a very different story. But you know, like they go through their grieving and then by the time actually adults going to let's separate, let's move apart, they have done part of their grieving and that, but they're still in survival. They still got to get, you know, a roof over their head, food on the table, children safe. Like it's really existential stuff.
And once they reach that point where they're better, actually what I often hear is that the children are fine. They're completely fine. They're not bothered. Till the parents actually cause somewhat out of that survival stage. And then it's almost that that signal is, oh, it's safe enough. Now I can fall apart. Now it's time. And it happened sometime in the 12 months after the separation. And I think that's where
Kristi McVee (11:09)
Yes, I've seen that too.
Melanie Enders (11:17)
you know, that's where I put a lot of education enough. Just wait, just wait because it will come. And then we have to hold that. And then all of a sudden, if there's a new partner coming in and it puts us as parents on edge because we don't know that person, that's a complete stranger that comes into our child's world and we have no control. And they might bring children and a whole nother family system that we don't have control over. So.
Kristi McVee (11:23)
Yeah.
Yeah.
I know.
Melanie Enders (11:43)
goes from grief into anger to anxiety. It's this whole, you know, sailing those waves. And I think the more awareness we have as adults, the more we can give to our children with them. That's something I watch and observe.
Kristi McVee (11:44)
There's so much to ask.
Yeah.
Yeah, well,
I can from my own experience say, you know, I went through that period in 12 months and what ended up happening was, that, so we obviously got back together, but in that 12 months, I just knew I'd grown up with a separated family and through blended family. So I was kind of like, I don't want to run into anything. So I wasn't rushing into a new partner. I wasn't rushing into dating. wasn't, I was like completely and utterly focused on my child because I was worried about
Melanie Enders (12:10)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (12:27)
her the outcome on her because I know that no one I felt like no one gave me any space time or energy when I like I just had to go with it. No one talked to me. And so I was like protecting her and you know, trying to and I was seeing a psychologist and I was doing all of the things. But at the end of the 12 months when I started feeling like maybe I could you know, think about dating. And that's when my husband and I had a conversation because one of the things that
Melanie Enders (12:33)
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (12:54)
came up for us was that, well, if we, you know, bring someone else into the family, like, you have to be good. Like I had to sit with it. Someone reminded me, I have to sit with it. If he started dating another person, well, that's not my choice who he dates. It's not my choice who he goes with. You know, it wasn't about, and we ended up getting back together because we felt like we wanted to try again. But both of us hadn't dated in that 12 months. We were a bit of an anomaly because a lot of people start dating way before that, but we were quite an anomaly.
Melanie Enders (13:08)
Yes.
Yep.
Kristi McVee (13:24)
And I
just remember thinking far out, could I be okay with someone coming into and being a stepparent to my daughter?
Melanie Enders (13:30)
It's very confronting, isn't it? It's so confronting, yeah. This is actually something I get asked a lot. And how do we do this? How do we do new partners? And in an ideal world, we would come together as parents and hey, I met this new person.
Kristi McVee (13:31)
And that adds a whole complexity to it. Very.
Yeah.
Melanie Enders (13:50)
and this person has been in my world for a while and this person is ready to actually take on that role. I want you to meet that person first. And then together we can prepare the pathway for our children to get introduced. However, that is the rarity of that happening. Often it is
Kristi McVee (14:02)
Yeah.
Melanie Enders (14:15)
that the child comes back and tells you, you know what? There is this new person that just hugged. And then we kind of catch it in the background and like, who is that? So yeah, it's very confronting.
Kristi McVee (14:21)
Yeah, that's right.
Yeah, well, there's no
like, yeah, and some partners move on really fast and it feels like, know, I'm still surviving. I'm still trying to get over the fact that we're no longer together. We've already started dating. What? You know, there's a lot of hurt involved.
Melanie Enders (14:31)
Yes.
Yes.
Yes,
yes, yes and then it gets misinterpreted as you know disrespect and not caring and this family is not important for this mum or for this dad or but yeah I think that are the children ready have their children grieved our original family format and are they actually ready to enter a new family format that
focus on the child often gets missed in that survival stage.
Kristi McVee (15:06)
Yeah.
100 % and from my perspective what I saw
is a lot of the parents are in survival so ⁓ their defences are down and so their defences comes to other people coming in and maybe the partner that they start dating they don't see the warning signs or they might be harmful to them and their kids or it's that another family member or someone close to them starts you know
Melanie Enders (15:18)
Yeah.
Yes.
Yes.
Kristi McVee (15:36)
coming in and making it seem like they're here to help, but they're actually here to hurt. And so I just know that from my own experiences and what I've seen from families is that you're at a very vulnerable space when you separate. You might be vulnerable before, but you're even more vulnerable then. So I guess from our perspective, yours or mine, what is some of the things that you think that help in this space? Like if someone's recently separated and they're like, okay, I'm in the thick of it.
Melanie Enders (15:41)
Yeah.
You are. That's absolutely true.
Kristi McVee (16:03)
you know, what are some of the considerations?
Melanie Enders (16:06)
Yeah, so for me, what really helped me in my own process, but I also watch a lot and I guess I have the honor to be a witness of a lot of these processes, is really self care, self care, self care, self care. And seems like so many people, and I'm not the best myself either when it comes to self care in reality, but...
don't even know the concept of what does that mean? What does that look like? What even is it? And really looking at the resources of what is around, what is there to help me grieve my own heart that I had this vision of this family with this person and this will not come into my future. This will not be the reality how I envisioned it. So I actually need to allow that grieving process.
and that may take a while. And who can help me with that? Who can guide me? Who can hold my hand and walk me through the grieving? Who can educate me what actually grief is? Because it's one of the things we don't talk about. Yeah, we just expected to get on with it. ⁓ You know, finances, how so many people are stuck in this traditional structure, especially in Australia.
Kristi McVee (16:55)
Yes.
Yes.
Melanie Enders (17:20)
where one is the main income earner. It's a bit different where I come from, from Germany. It's a very different culture system, but that fear of how am gonna do this? How do I, like there's a very structured, like almost a rigid format of a picture of how it should be. And they can't creatively adjust or think outside that box. So who is around?
Kristi McVee (17:37)
Yeah.
Well,
Melanie Enders (17:44)
You didn't walk me. Yeah, that's...
Kristi McVee (17:44)
we ourselves off as well. Yeah, we kind of cut ourselves off. Like I know when I was going through that situation, I had a full time job. I knew that I could survive. However, I know that when I've been part time or, casual or, when I was at home being a stay at home parent, you know, you kind of feel like I've got no options here. Like I am literally relying on this person to support me.
Melanie Enders (18:02)
Mm.
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (18:09)
You know, know that a lot of my best friend's Swedish, so she's like, in Sweden, we're like the women are the main income earners. We make lot of money. We do all of it. We don't always, when we get married, we don't always live with our partner. They live in their house, we live in ours. Like, very different structures that we don't have in Australia.
Melanie Enders (18:23)
Yeah. Yes.
Yes, for example, it's a common structure in the Middle East, for example, is the nesting concept, where the children actually stay in one home and the parents come in and out. So the children don't have to change homes. There's so many options available, but often when we're in this first phase and complete survival, it's really hard to think outside the box. So who can we go to that actually shows us the buffet of options? Because there's always more than one option.
And just because we can't see it, you know?
Kristi McVee (18:56)
Yeah, I have heard that.
Yeah, I think also, families get involved like extended families and people and really what it comes down to is it's just you, you, your ex partner, your kids, they're the only people in this situation that actually matter, you know, listening to other people, fine, but don't make them help, let them help you make your decisions because they are not living in ⁓ a...
Melanie Enders (19:09)
Yes.
Yes.
I'm so glad you addressed that. Yes. And it comes to
family environment, ⁓ that comes to even social environment. Who are actually the people around you that put fuel on the fire that's already burning and who is helping me to calm down the inflammation and go, come on, what actually helps? ⁓
Kristi McVee (19:42)
Yeah,
Melanie Enders (19:43)
Yeah, that's
Kristi McVee (19:43)
yeah, I know.
Melanie Enders (19:44)
something while you're in this vulnerable space, it's really hard to determine that what's actually helpful and what is making it worse. A lot of people feel very, very numb through that process, completely numb. They lose their own alignment, their own internal alignment of hang on, what is right for me in this moment. And if I lose that sense, that connection to self,
It's very hard to make decisions that are not fear-based. Fear never usually makes good decisions for us. So that internal alignment of what brings me back to that and who are the people that help me come back to that. Because that's where I have to guide my children when they go through grieving. So I really have to learn that for myself. What does alignment actually feel like?
what feels good in my heart, in my body, which is more difficult when there's trauma in the field because yeah that's harder but there's therapists, is coaches, there's mentors, there's you know women's groups, men's groups, parenting groups, there's a lot of resources available. It's just a matter of being courageously enough to actually reach out to that.
Kristi McVee (20:32)
Hmm.
Yeah.
I think also people wait till they're in crisis before they reach out for help. think if more people went into therapy or groups or help before they got into crisis, then there would be less crisis, right? We would be able to pull. It's like when you steer a ship that's basically going to hit the beach, but trying to turn it at the last second. so, you know, a ship takes a long time to turn around. So you need to give it time to turn around. You can't expect it. And I'm not saying
Melanie Enders (20:59)
Yes.
Mm-hmm.
Absolutely.
Yes.
Yes.
Kristi McVee (21:23)
I'm not saying all relationships are going to survive that, but however, also with ourselves, we tend to only reach out for help when we're in crisis. so I would, from my own experiences, I would say have conversations with a third party, a non-biased third party before you start.
Pulling the plug on everything and saying, it's too late, throw it out, like it's done. And I know most of my listeners are female, but we do have some male listeners as well. I know that from my own experience, I've had to drag my husband by the ear, basically, not quite, but to get help, like for him and me, to get our relationship help. And we've been married for 25 years. And still, even to this day, yeah.
Melanie Enders (22:04)
Mmm.
Yeah. ⁓ wow. Yoo-hoo.
Kristi McVee (22:12)
Still to this day, ⁓ you know, he sometimes doesn't recognize when he needs help. So the thing is, this that I think we need to be better in touch. And you were talking about that alignment, you know, you know, listening to your intuition, like there's something that I teach in body safety that that early warning signs, you've got early warning signs in your relationship and in your own relationship with yourself that you need to listen to.
Melanie Enders (22:24)
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I am a couple of therapists. So I have sat with hundreds of couples and there's a really, I mean, the Gottman Institute has a lot of research on that. You know, like on average when people have troubles before they even see a therapist, they have been in that stuck pattern for five to six years on average. And you know, I have some couples which
that it warms my heart especially when they are in a blended family and they are in their second relationship in their second family system you know they often put strategies in place like we go routinely we have one appointment a year just to have a check-in just even if we think everything is sweet everything is cruising this is our commitment to our family and i feel so touched by that you know
Kristi McVee (23:21)
Yeah, right.
Melanie Enders (23:30)
that consistent we inputting into our relationships so we can do it better than we did it last time.
Kristi McVee (23:31)
Yeah.
Yeah, it's not about going because you think it's going to end. Like I think that's that we just saw bad in Australia at realizing that you maintain your car and you change your oil and tires to keep it running. Right. You have to do that. I used to say, there's a saying I say all the time, you know, the grass isn't greener on the other side of fence. It's green where you water it. And if you don't water your own grass and it's not going to be green. it's the same with the relationship.
Melanie Enders (23:47)
Yes!
Yes.
Yes. Totally.
Kristi McVee (24:02)
If you don't make time for each other, if you don't find little rituals together, if you don't go and have dates. And I mean, I haven't, I'm still struggling to fit those things in at times, you know, with all of the things going on in my life. And, but I know that that's what's necessary to keep a relationship going. And whether it's your first, second, third, whatever, I mean, I grew up.
Melanie Enders (24:03)
Yeah.
Mmm.
Kristi McVee (24:24)
My dad had three main relationships, multiple family groups, systems, my mom's the same. so I knew that and it and really it was like watching them. And that's where we learn all of this stuff, right? We learn through watching our own parents.
Melanie Enders (24:30)
Wow.
100%. Yes. That's
a guess what we deal with in family systems work of this is my current family system and this is my family of origin. This is where I learned how to do relationship. And what about this when I asked through my adult eyes, not the child eyes, but my big me, my adult in me, when I look at that.
What is it that felt good in my body? And what parts over there did I learn that didn't feel good in my body? So what parts do I want to pass forward? You know, that's the gene pool. What do I want to pass forward? And what is me? I'm the last generation that will feel that. And that, guess,
Kristi McVee (25:06)
Yeah.
Melanie Enders (25:22)
That is where we have control. We don't have control who are the new step siblings and who are the new step parents, but we do have control at looking at our own system because our couple's relationship might have ended, but our parenting relationship will carry on. And for that, we need to look at our own parents of, what couple's relationship did I observe there and what parenting relationship did I watch?
Kristi McVee (25:39)
Yes.
Melanie Enders (25:48)
And what is it that I will bring into this current family? How do we want to do parenting for our child? And even that separation of couple, couple businesses done, but parenting business will go on. Even that separation is something a lot of people can't see while they're in the midst of it. But if we actually tease that apart, there's a lot of stress that just falls away. It's like, it doesn't have to completely everything.
burned. It's just you know we just have to restructure. So if I have like you know unsafe people in my family of origin what can I learn from that so I can educate my children differently so I can create the frame around my family differently and I think that's yeah that's where we have control.
Kristi McVee (26:18)
Yeah.
one of the biggest things that I had growing up was my step-parent was really bad, like she bad-mouthed my other parent likes. So she bad-mouthed my mother and talked really poorly about her. And she used her as a threat against me when I was, cause I grew up with my dad. My dad never spoke about my mom, like never said anything rude or mean or anything, but my step-mom did all of the damage there, right? And I,
Melanie Enders (26:45)
⁓ yes.
Yes.
Yes.
Mm-hmm.
Kristi McVee (27:02)
And so when I did separate from my husband for that year, I didn't talk about my husband at all. I didn't say anything about him because one of the things that was in my head was that it's not for a child. Like these are not children's problems. These are adult problems that adults have to deal with. And we need to be the adult in these relationships. We can't put our hurt, pain and problems onto children. They've got their own to deal with. And so...
Melanie Enders (27:10)
Yes.
Yes, 100 percent.
Yes,
100 percent.
Kristi McVee (27:30)
I ⁓
just remember thinking that, like, I just remember thinking that, like, I didn't want to be that parent, that bad mouth. And I've seen some people do it badly. And I've seen some people do it really well. Like, I've got, like, again, my best friend and her ex partner, she never talks badly about her ex, even though he is atrocious. And she never talks badly about him in front of the kids. she's, and one of the things that I learned also from my own experiences is it didn't matter what my
my stepmother said, or it didn't matter what anyone else said about my parent, she was still my mother. And regardless of that fact, I still loved her. it's so unfair to try and make a child hate someone based on your feelings about them. It's so unfair. So I just want to say this space, like if you're a parent and you have a bad relationship with your ex or their stepparent or whatever,
Melanie Enders (28:13)
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (28:22)
It is not fair to put that on your child. It is not fair to talk like that in front of them because regardless of what you think, that is still the child's parent. And you chose that person once upon a time to be your partner. And if it wasn't for you, they wouldn't have that parent. That's a really hard thing to say, but I want to like wake up and realize that you can talk about people like that and expect.
Melanie Enders (28:40)
Yes. Yes.
Kristi McVee (28:47)
because your child will learn those lessons when they get old enough to understand them.
Melanie Enders (28:51)
You just gotta wait. And the reason behind is that because, you know, children are 50% genetically, 50% their father and 50% their mother. And if I say bad stuff about my child's father, there is also 50% that gets into my child. And that's where we start actually the internal twisting of the child, the internal split loyalty. So we actually...
Kristi McVee (28:53)
We're doing it.
They internalised it.
Melanie Enders (29:18)
Adding to our children's stress that is so unnecessary if I just look in sense like hey I feel really threatened by that stepparent. What is it within me that has such a difficult time to look at this stepparent? Am I'm jealous? Am I intimidated? Am I'm disagreeing the way she speaks to my child? Possibly. But that is my business and it's not for the child to carry and it's not for the child to
ever having to choose. You know they are already in a difficult situation 100%. There was something else when you was it yeah exactly. There are two formats of language. There is a healing language we use in family systems a lot and there's really very quite toxic language. You know that one is owning it like I could look at
Kristi McVee (29:48)
Yeah.
Melanie Enders (30:10)
other parent go ⁓ man you know money money is a hot topic in so many families you know he refused he he drives all these big fancy car and he doesn't declare enough and therefore i'm in you know i have to be home every time the child is sick while he drives a fancy car but doesn't pay child support that's a classic yeah the child will internalize that but the healing
Kristi McVee (30:29)
Yes.
They'll make it there.
Melanie Enders (30:34)
Yes but what the child from a soul yearning level really wants to hear is I'm so grateful for you dad that he brought you into the world with me together. I will be grateful to him forever or when I look at you I feel so much love for you and you know like there's so many so many healing language there's an actual language architecture behind that that we as adults can learn.
that we don't have to just verbally vomit all our unprocessed emotions onto this child, but actually hold back and go hang on, what is the goodness that this person has brought into my life? And if it is the gift of the child, the child will love to hear that. It will make them shine and grow and you now get strong, where the other language actually weakens the child. It makes them internally crumble.
And no parents want that.
Kristi McVee (31:30)
I think, ⁓
no, they don't. And I don't think we think enough of the effects our words have on our kids. And again, like I know from experience, from my own experience as a child, but also as an adult, we need to be really mindful that we don't put adult problems on little young shoulders. And because our do internalise those things, I know that
Melanie Enders (31:33)
No.
Yes.
Hmm.
Yes.
Mm.
Kristi McVee (31:52)
except, you know, sometimes we have those issues with a lot of the times I have, you know, we have partners who don't want to pay child support or don't want to support you now that they're no longer in the family. We've got partners who do bring in your partner straight away. And all of that is really harmful and hurtful and stressful and fearful all of the things, but that's why we have therapists. Go and talk to a therapist, not your child.
Melanie Enders (31:58)
Mmm.
Yep.
Yeah
well I remember that even out of my own system when this new stepmother came in and I remember that feeling when Mother's Day you know how they do things at school for my and it all went to stepmom and nothing came to me and I just went the words that were my tongue that I just wanted to splutter out my goodness yeah but
Kristi McVee (32:33)
That's all.
Melanie Enders (32:40)
⁓ I looked at my son and thought, wow, okay, I created this situation for him with his dad together and he is trying his very best attempt to find a sense of belonging in that system. And one of the rules in that system is that you give gifts. Gifts are really important in that system. They're not that important to me. They're not my love language. so...
Kristi McVee (32:55)
Yeah.
and spending time together is more important.
Melanie Enders (33:06)
Yes, Hux,
you know, get the quality time. So I actually had to rewire my own internal stuff and go, I can see how that is really important. So from that day onwards, I would go, right, it's such and such birthday coming up. Do you have a gift? Do you need me to go to the shops with you so you can buy a gift? I would, you know, that was not easy at times, but how can I?
support this child to feel a sense of belonging by applying the rules they have or the unspoken rules. But it's hard. You know it's...
Kristi McVee (33:40)
That's amazing. Yeah, that's amazing. I
know. I mean, it brings up all of your own, like, rejection and all of this.
Melanie Enders (33:47)
⁓ totally
totally yeah.
Kristi McVee (33:50)
I can only
imagine how that must have felt like. But you you get better at it. Like my, can only relate to this in the fact that my daughter just moved out of home and she's got, you know, with her boyfriend and she's got her boyfriend's family to talk to and like she doesn't come to me with everything and I feel rejected. Like I'm like, why does it my child want me? And then, you know, like I'm
Melanie Enders (34:06)
⁓ yes.
Yes.
Kristi McVee (34:13)
I'm not telling her that I'm not going to her. She doesn't listen to my podcast. So she's not going to hear this. ⁓ you know, like I, remember like, my gosh, like she doesn't, she's replacing me. So I kind of understand in a way because you do feel like being replaced.
Melanie Enders (34:19)
Yeah.
Yes.
Totally it's very threatening inside like it's not a nice feeling in my body but it is also part of the consequence of the choices I've made and as an adult I can hold that. As an adult I can deal with that I can adjust but the child shouldn't ever have to.
Kristi McVee (34:44)
Yeah. Yeah.
What is your recommendations when, for instance, I'm sure you see this in your therapy and in practice a lot. When children go to the other home and they come home and they're complaining about the other parent or the other parent's partner or whatever, how should parents deal with that?
Melanie Enders (34:54)
Hmm.
Yes. Yeah.
Yeah so that's a very very common one and like in our situation it was like my stepson he would always go back to you know his mom say ⁓ their food is terrible and all I do is play screens in our house and I'm like yeah no but what happens is really lean into the experience of your child again behavior is language
Imagine you lean into this experience of this little human and what is he getting out of that? What's the payout? When he says that, what is the response? And you know there is a need that is being met underneath that behavior because in essence they love both parents. Children ideally always want their parents to come somehow back together.
Kristi McVee (35:47)
Mm.
Melanie Enders (35:54)
So sometimes children need to go from one home to the other and they just had five days of not mum or five days of not dad. So if there is a conflict between the parents, they're really clever. They know if I bag out dad, I get almost like a magnet sucked back to mum and get even closer because we together aligning against dad.
then it may go the other way around. When I go to dad's house and I haven't seen him for seven of my dad's you know not even two weeks. So how can I make up for the time that I missed? And the fastest way is if they have a conflict to align with dad against mom or against the stepparent. So if that is a common behavior and I would nut that out first
Kristi McVee (36:38)
Okay.
Melanie Enders (36:46)
of all right rather than jumping on the boat with his leg yeah yeah yeah dad's house you know he does nothing with you da da da da try and redirect it try and find other ways is there you know what was one thing that was fun at dad's house and what you know what's your favorite soft toy or what find a different entry door to create connection rather than using the entry door of bagging the other parent out if that doesn't work
You need to take it serious.
Kristi McVee (37:15)
Yeah. Yeah, I can see what you mean though.
Melanie Enders (37:16)
Like that needs to be weeded out.
You need to weed that out first. You really need to understand what is the child getting out of by doing that. And ideally like you have a conversation as parents. Hey this is what's happening. know can we talk about this? If that is not the case and you know what is a classic you know
Screens, screens is a classic conflict topic in a lot of houses, know, one house has unfiltered internet and yeah, you know, see if you can speak with the other parent about it. But in a way that it, you know, I mean, how you say that it doesn't become a, what do you call it, hidden fruit? No.
Kristi McVee (37:46)
has none and one has both.
Melanie Enders (37:59)
What's the term that you use? Forbidden fruit! Forbidden fruit, Kristi!
Kristi McVee (37:59)
Is there a
Isn't it a strike?
Yeah, yeah. I think one of the things that you were saying, I found it interesting that you were saying that children will use conflict as a way to connect. Is that because we've taught them that's how we connect with them?
Melanie Enders (38:13)
Yes.
Unfortunately, often that is the case, yes. Yeah. Yeah. It's sad, but...
Kristi McVee (38:19)
so whilst, it's,
yeah, right. So it's basically, we are like encouraging them to bag out the other parent because it makes us feel better that they don't like them and it makes the child feel closer to you quickly.
Melanie Enders (38:30)
That's right.
Yes and children will sniff out before you even often know it yourself what is needed. So if I let's say have an insecurity about a common topic is alright especially when one has repartnered and maybe has repartnered with someone that already has children and I'm still single. What if
my child finds that house more fun because they have other kids to play with where here it's just me and what if i'm not enough because i already have an i'm not enough wound or i'm not enough ⁓ insecurity you know the child that they smell that out they you know or they feel like i can't leave mom alone at home so i might have to find stories i tell about the other house so
I can assure I can stay with mum. So it's almost like they're aligning themselves often. But that is a result really if we haven't done our own internal process around that.
Kristi McVee (39:26)
Yeah.
I can also
see that being an issue if we are like putting again, putting problems that are not for children to worry about onto their shoulders. Like if we're talking about money, we're talking about feeling lonely when they leave us. If we're talking about, you know, that we're worried about the other partner, then children, like you said, children want to make, and I know from experience, know, children don't often lie about abuse, right? ⁓ But
Melanie Enders (39:46)
Yes. Yes.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Kristi McVee (40:04)
And I'm not talking about abuse in this situation, but I know that when ⁓ children feel like they're unsafe, will remove, like they will take back what they've said if they've said something. the same can be said for saying something to enable a parent to feel more, you know, like they're not being abandoned. So if your child feels abandoned or sorry, if you feel abandoned by when your child goes to the other home.
Melanie Enders (40:16)
Mmm.
Yes.
Kristi McVee (40:29)
then your child's going to sniff that out and try and make you feel less abandoned. And this is a thing that people often do not realize is how in tune and intuitive our children are. And even if they don't understand what they're doing, they will try and make us feel better because a safe, a parent that's, you know, safe or parent that's healthy and happy is a safe parent. A parent that's angry and upset and hurt is unsafe.
Melanie Enders (40:33)
That's right.
Yes.
Yes,
yes 100 % Kristi yeah and that in you know the internal family loyalties always go along the lines of out of love to you I will sacrifice my time with that, out of love to you I will join you in your sadness, out of love to you I will carry part of your fate.
And that is how dysfunctional family patterns reproduce throughout the generations. Like sexual abuse is very, very rarely does that only happen once. When we look at family systems or domestic violence or addictions or it's a repetitive pattern, sometimes it jumps a generation or two, but if the work is not done, if it's not acknowledged, it will
Kristi McVee (41:29)
No, that's right.
Melanie Enders (41:43)
find its way back in so someone will come along and complete the circle and heal it and go this is where it stops it will not repeat and that is very confronting but if we actually look and that's why i mean it's so important that we look at our family of origin at our you know ancestral patterning of what is there that i can be in control now that i look at it i acknowledge it i speak about it
and then it will change differently forward.
Kristi McVee (42:13)
Yeah, and I think we can talk about these things with our kids in age appropriate ways. For instance, when I when my daughter was younger, I would look at you know, she was intrigued by the fact that we didn't have a lot to do with certain family members. And we weren't close to, different parts of our family. And so I would say things like when she was younger, and couldn't explain it to her in full, I'd be saying things like, well, you know, the
Melanie Enders (42:18)
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (42:38)
growing up, they didn't know any better and they weren't very safe. I use the word safe, the language of safe and unsafe. were unsafe to be around. And so as an adult, I get to now that I don't have to spend time with these people. that's why we don't spend time with them. you know, I didn't go into, well, they were abusive and they used to hit me and they used to do this and they used drugs and they used alcohol. I didn't go into all of that. But I was like, as an adult, I to choose.
Melanie Enders (42:48)
Mmm.
Mmm.
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (43:06)
that I don't spend time with safe people. And so, you know, it was just a way to explain it to her so that it made sense in her world, but it wasn't trauma dumping on her or making her feel like she was responsible for anything or that because kids take on our feelings and emotions. And then, I think that's one of the things that we need to be really mindful. Kids don't get to decide who their families are and they don't get to decide who we introduce into their lives or who we remove from them.
Melanie Enders (43:06)
Yeah.
Yes.
That's right.
Kristi McVee (43:32)
They only get to, you know, they have to live within what we decide. And so when we decide, we need to be really mindful.
Melanie Enders (43:37)
Yeah.
There's actually two really simple tools parents can use and there's actually day charts. So, one thing, especially when we work with blended families, sit down with your kids and draw up a family tree and really draw into who belongs to that tree. Because often kids are so confused and all of a sudden this uncle comes, but really it's not an uncle, it's some friend.
or like to really make a full-on family tree of who belongs, who's part of the system. So when they come back from the other family, they can go like, well, this person there, I don't feel so good. And that's the factual order of who belongs and who doesn't. And then there is a second one that is like a spiral. And I quickly show you.
which is sometimes really helpful with kids to go through you know like oops where we draw like a spiral and let's say circles are friends and triangles is family and you can you know and like this and then we go yes this is so and so
Kristi McVee (44:56)
we draw the mean.
Melanie Enders (44:59)
but on this spiral how close would they be to you would this would this family this friend be here or here or will it be all the way over here and okay it's here but if you had a choice sorry
Kristi McVee (45:09)
Yes.
And if that's the child's experience, that's
Is that the child's experience? So they're drawing their experience.
Melanie Enders (45:18)
100 % okay you have this person here does that feel good or would you want them further out or do you want them closer in so you make it actually three-dimensional on a piece of paper and that's how you can lean into their experience so okay you come back from mom's house and you tell me all these all these stories from mom's house that really they sound like you had not a very good time but
when we put mom on this spiral where is she okay she's maybe out here where would you want to have her well maybe i want to have her right here or maybe i want her like you know you get an inside glimpse of this how close and far someone is and who is too close and maybe this weekend someone came in at so and so and so and they came this close but i really didn't like them this close
Kristi McVee (46:10)
Yeah, right. That's such an awesome.
Melanie Enders (46:10)
And that is a very,
you know, safe way without putting too much on them meaning making that, you know, like it's a very just, it's a chart where they at and.
Kristi McVee (46:21)
You're
also not putting words in their mouth.
Melanie Enders (46:23)
That's right. Yeah, that's right. Which is, know...
Kristi McVee (46:26)
You're just good.
that's another thing. Yeah, yeah, very important. And that's another thing that I learned over the years, ⁓ perception versus reality for all of us, right? So sometimes we perceive things, the reality is different. So and we perceive things based on our experiences, our trauma, our, you know, our all of the things, right?
Melanie Enders (46:36)
Yes.
the filter.
Kristi McVee (46:47)
Yeah, the filters that we all have and we all have different filters and reality is so so sometimes I will ask my daughter when she would come home from somewhere or she'd go somewhere I'd be like, she'd tell me a story and I'd be like, Okay, so which part of that is actual actually happened? Your perception from your because you know, she would have feelings about stuff like they they didn't include me. So whenever there was, I didn't feel included, I'd be like,
Melanie Enders (46:50)
That's right.
Mmm.
Mmm.
Kristi McVee (47:12)
Well, OK, which part is actual and which one's perceived? Because sometimes we perceive that we're not being included, but they did ask us to be included, but we didn't accept the offer.
Melanie Enders (47:20)
That's right.
Yes, that's right.
Kristi McVee (47:22)
So
being mindful of that as well, I think.
Melanie Enders (47:25)
And I think that especially like the filter of like, I mean, you know, my background is in trauma therapy. So I will always look at it's like probably like you with your background, constantly scanning like, whose behavior is off. And sometimes, you know, checking out, am I being a bit cuckoo here or, you know, like, am I being over? Yes. And I think that as a parent, it's really important to look at
Kristi McVee (47:45)
I'm overreacting. Hypervigilance.
Melanie Enders (47:51)
Well, is my filter? What filter has been created for me? It's either hyper vigilant or completely avoided and numbed out because of my historical experiences. So how can I find a middle ground and meet my child from that middle ground and not put my filter onto them?
Kristi McVee (48:14)
Yeah,
I think you're 100% right and it's really hard to do. None of what we've talked about today is about guilting parents or shaming parents, but it's being aware that we really do do this to our kids. So it's about being aware of it.
Melanie Enders (48:24)
⁓ no.
Ugh.
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (48:31)
Because ultimately you don't want your children looking back over the time that you were going through and having to apologise for the behaviour we had when we were going through it. We want to try and come from a grounded space and when we're not grounded, it's outside of what they see. Like that's what I did when I was separated. I cried into my pillow at night. She had a play date and I went off and like...
Melanie Enders (48:46)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (48:54)
into the ether while I was dealing with my pain and my grief and stuff like that of, you know, this uncoupling. And, you know, and when we were back together, it wasn't like straight into, well, we're happy families again. You know, there was some, you know, we didn't pretend I didn't pretend that everything was okay. I just was like, we had she didn't know all of that. She just knew that, okay, now we're back, mom and dad, we're back together. However, you know, mom and dad were doing the work in the background.
Melanie Enders (48:59)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (49:22)
So it's not them to know. It's for them to have a childhood, have a relationship. I think also one of the things that I really liked about that, the diagrams and like the thing is that by drawing out the family tree, because you do feel really lost and alone when your family sort of implodes and separates, by drawing out a family tree, you realize that you're not alone and who, and it's similar to the
Melanie Enders (49:22)
Yes.
Totally.
Kristi McVee (49:47)
the safety network that we talk about in body safety, know, who are the five safe people that we can go to. That will change when uncouple, that will change when partnerships separate and stuff like that. Revisiting those sorts of things all the time helps kids know exactly where they stand.
Melanie Enders (49:52)
Hmm
Totally, there's an order and when there's an order I belong. when I've been, like the three human core needs are really food, shelter and belonging. And belonging is the part that gets really shaken when we have a blended family because I need to reorder constantly. And a family tree can be supportive of that, totally. And the five safe people that gives me an order of how do I orientate, totally.
Kristi McVee (50:25)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Melanie Enders (50:31)
Mm. Yeah.
Kristi McVee (50:32)
Well, I think I think people will be following along with you and seeing what you're doing and if they can. So where can they find you and any information about, you know, all talked about really, where can they find you?
Melanie Enders (50:43)
Mmm
Well, I think I could, I mean, you were part of the blended family summit, a resource that I created and you can find that on my homepage. You just put melanieenders.com and where I actually pull together all these different professionals out of this field that come and give us snippets out of their lens, out of, you know, someone that talks specifically out of grief, someone that talks really about the nervous system.
What is behavior is nervous system regulation as well. Kristi is there to talk about body safety. What does it look like as an educator? you know, like how can we support our children by what sharing with education? That is, think, a really awesome resource that hopefully over time will grow. But I think that is a really good starting point. Even attachment theory for couples like.
Yeah, there's so much, so much really good value content in there. But yeah, on my homepage, send me an email. Anyway, I can help. I'm like, hmm.
Kristi McVee (51:47)
Yeah, that's amazing.
I've got I'll put all of information. Yeah,
I'll put it all in the show notes so that we've got it all in people can find you. Because yeah, the summit that we all you organized that we
we were all part of, I think that is a really good starting point for any family that is dealing with blended family, separation, etc. So yeah, that's the best resource that you have right now and otherwise to get in touch with you.
Melanie Enders (52:08)
Yeah.
Yeah, that's really, I've written a book too, Kristi, it's a slow process. Just moved house and it just went on the pause button. But a lot of the things that I have collided over the last, however many years, actually pulled together in a book too on, you know, different things we can do to support these systems.
Kristi McVee (52:35)
That's amazing. Well, when it comes, when it's.
Melanie Enders (52:36)
So one day that will also be
there.
Kristi McVee (52:38)
Well, when that is, will happily share it for you and make sure people know about it. Because like I said at the very beginning of the start of this podcast, blended families are the norm now. They ⁓ never used to be. I'm actually an anomaly. I'm an anomaly of having a 25 year old 30 years together. I know and now we're too stubborn to give up. Like we're like,
Melanie Enders (52:49)
Yes.
Yeah
You are.
Too far.
Kristi McVee (53:01)
Like we
made it too dirty, how long can we go before we kill each other? it's an honor to be with someone that long. you know, again, I did say this and I do say this often, like, if you don't water the grass, it's not going to be green, it's not going to it's not going to grow. It really comes down to and I mean, sometimes that's not possible. it's you've got to agree, you got to water yourself as well. you know,
Melanie Enders (53:05)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Totally.
Kristi McVee (53:27)
in relationships
about watering yourself watering, watering each other and making each other feel safe. And if that's not your situation, and you don't, it's okay. Like mine was like that, you know, a long time ago, 15 years ago, or however long now. So it's okay if it wasn't it isn't that so it's it's Yeah, so I will put all of our stuff in the show notes.
Melanie Enders (53:36)
Mmm.
Can I say
one last thing that, you know, to me, it's really not about judgment or bagging anymore. ⁓ Really, this is so in my heart. Parenting is a whole heap of trial and error. And especially in blended family, there is no blueprint that we can follow. So it's all right to get it wrong and try again and try again and try again. you know, I've been 15 years into that too.
Kristi McVee (53:52)
Of course we
Melanie Enders (54:14)
I'm still going through the circle of try, that wasn't right, try again, try again, so yeah. So you're not alone. Okay yeah. Thank you. Thank you.
Kristi McVee (54:20)
human experience. Yeah. Thanks Mel.
Kristi McVee (54:26)
That's a wrap on today's conversation with the wonderful Mel Enders. If anything we discussed today resonated with you, whether you're in the thick of separation, navigating a blended family, or just doing the quiet work of trying to be a better parent, I hope you take away this. You are not alone and getting help before crisis hits is not a weakness, it's wisdom. You can find Mel at MelanieEnders.com. I'll drop all the details in the show notes, including the Blended Family Summit, which is a genuinely brilliant resource.
And if today's episode stirred something up for you personally, please reach out to a qualified therapist or counselor. Mel's details are in the show notes and there are supports available to you no matter where you're at. If you found this episode valuable, please share it with someone who needs to hear it. Leave a review if you can. It generally helps more people find the show.
I'll see you next time on Conversations with Kristi.
