Kristi McVee (00:00)
Hey team, welcome back to the Conversations with Kristi podcast. I'm your host Kristi McVee a former child abuse detective, specialist child interviewer, and now child safety educator.
Look, today's guest is someone I genuinely loved speaking with. Dr. Jenny Brown is a family therapist, a mental health social worker, and a researcher with over 35 years of experience in parenting and children's mental health. She's the founder of the Parent HOPE Project, and she has a brand new book coming out called The Parenting Paradox. And here's the thing, we spend a lot of time in this episode talking about fear.
because as parents we're scared, we're scared of getting it wrong, scared of what's going to happen, scared of what might happen.
And Dr. Jenny has a really grounded evidence-based take on what that fear is actually doing to our kids and to us. This one hit quite close to home for me personally, and I think it will for you. So let's go see what Dr. Jenny has to say. She leaves us with some really good tips on how to deal with fear and our anxiety and how to help our kids. Let's get into it.
Kristi McVee (00:58)
Welcome back to the Conversations with Kristi podcast. And I'm with Dr. Jenny Brown today. And the cool thing about Dr. Jenny Brown is that she is a researcher and has 35 years experience. And I'm not going to tell you what her experience is in because I think it's more cool if Dr. Jenny tells you all about herself. I was just having a quick chat with Dr. Jenny before we started. the thing that came up for me when I was looking at your
what your work's about is I think it aligns a little with what I believe as well in regards to parenting, and I've had a lot of parents saying that they're scared. How do we not be so scared all the time? So I think that's gonna be a little bit about what we talk about today.
Jenny Brown (01:37)
Great, Kristi. We had a good little conversation beforehand. said to you, I should be interviewing you. Your ideas were really good. So I look forward to chatting.
Kristi McVee (01:45)
Yeah, well,
let's get into basically who you are and how you got to doing this work, Jenny.
Jenny Brown (01:53)
Yeah, well,
I am a family therapist, a mental health social worker. My research is in social science, all about parenting and their kids' mental health. That's my world clinically research, writing podcast, developing the Parent HOPE project resources. That's me.
And I've been doing it even more than your 35 years, you said, since, yeah, going right back to the 1980s, which also coincided with the time I became a parent. Can't believe how the years have gone by and I've now got actually middle-aged daughters. I'm not really ready to say that and I'm a grandparent.
Kristi McVee (02:20)
I know. Of course.
Ha!
Yep.
Jenny Brown (02:39)
So
that's a little bit of me. There's so much more to all of our journeys, but that just gives a little bit of context.
Kristi McVee (02:47)
I mean, I think parenting is the biggest ⁓ lessons in life, the biggest education you'll ever have. know that.
For me, before parenting, you think that you know everything and you think that you'll know what kind of parent you'll be and you think that you'll have it all sorted. And I used to laugh when, you know, after I became a parent and people, some of my friends who weren't parents yet would say, when I have children, they won't do this and that. And I used to have a giggle to myself because everyone thinks like that. And then you have kids and it completely wipes your ideas away.
Jenny Brown (02:57)
It's true. ⁓
huh.
Indeed, that
resonates for me. our best parenting years are before we're parents when we watch other people's messes and think we could do better and then reality hits. It's a messy, complicated, joyous, interesting journey.
Kristi McVee (03:21)
Yeah.
We're the best parents in the
I definitely think that if we knew what we were going to sign up for, some of us would opt out. We would definitely not have gone down the parenting route because it's messy, it's tricky, it brings up all of your fears. Sometimes it brings up your trauma. It does so many things to us that we don't think we're ready for or we don't realize how unprepared we are for.
when you're in it, you have to go through it. And so, you you just have to keep riding the waves.
Jenny Brown (04:06)
Yeah, yeah. I remember just telling myself, Jenny, think of all the generations that have gone before and they've survived and kids have grown up and the life cycle goes on. So somehow you'll find your way. I remember as a young parent, just reassuring myself of that. But the whole parenting world has become my main interest because clinically,
Kristi McVee (04:25)
Yeah, right.
Jenny Brown (04:34)
I've done couple work, individual work, whole family therapy work, but the parenting has really become important to me because of my work in child mental health and consulting and teaching clinicians in that field. I just realized how parents were so often sidelined and yet they were such an important resource for
Kristi McVee (04:58)
Yeah.
Jenny Brown (04:59)
their child's recovery of well-being, not because parents are to blame. So many complex factors that go into kids' mental health difficulties. But parents influence the environment and if they can be helped to influence it for everyone's growth, then I believe we could make a real difference in this current epidemic of kids' and young people's mental health. I think it's a missing piece.
Kristi McVee (05:26)
100 percent.
Jenny Brown (05:26)
That's
why I'm really focusing at this longer towards the finish end of my career. Who knows if it's near the finish. My husband who's retired would like it to be, but I love what I'm doing. And this is what I'm really passionate about now is how parents can recover their confidence that they can make a difference for their kids' even if their kids
one or more of their children are struggling.
Kristi McVee (05:54)
I think what happens is, I mean, a lot is we feel so much guilt and shame and embarrassment when our kids are struggling, right? And the environment that parenting is today, it's very like, I remember my daughter's had many mental health struggles. I've had mental health struggles. But one of the clarity, the things that were clarified really heavily for me is that I was dealing with people going through all of these things as a police officer all the time, right?
Jenny Brown (06:12)
Mm-hmm.
Kristi McVee (06:24)
And so it kind of became normal that it's okay that you go through these things. Here are all the things that we can do about it. Like we, it's okay if your child's struggling, you're not always to blame for that or you're not, you know, how we, what can we do to support you? What can we give you to support you? Not always possible, not always great, not always people taking that advice on, but I think it normalized the fact that everyone struggles and that's why.
when my daughter was going through mental health problems as a young girl, she's got ADHD, autism, she's, you know, that exacerbates some of the issues. It's not a not, you know.
they're not, they're complex issues on their own, but then adding hormones and going through changes and school drama and bullying and all of the things. So, but what that actually did was it actually normalized mental health being it's normal to have problems and to have issues and have challenges and it's okay if we need help.
Jenny Brown (07:05)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yep, totally agree. And one of the things that I am suggesting to parents, and there's good research to back it up, is we want to access help, but not too quickly. Not become too reliant on the labels and diagnoses and expert help, because in that, it is a paradox.
something you'd know I'm writing about, one of the parenting paradoxes is sometimes less help is more. But if we can just reset and think, what kind of parent, what's my job description here? How can I live that out day by day rather than go down that worry of, my child's not doing well. I'd better get help straight away.
what's the diagnosis, we monitor the child looking for signs that they're struggling and in that whole process we can create a worry cycle that overwhelms our parenting. And when that happens, we're just being led by our worry, not developing our confidence. So I'm talking a lot to mental health professionals like me saying be careful to not
Kristi McVee (08:25)
Yeah.
Jenny Brown (08:32)
over-advised parents or over-pathologized children, as you were saying, Kristi normalize the ups and downs of emotional struggles and that people can find their way through them if they're not overwhelmed.
Kristi McVee (08:45)
Yeah.
Yeah. I mean, look, I had a interesting experience because not only was I parenting a young child, I was also being a police officer, you know, helping people. So for me, ⁓ one of the, one of the things that I used to think when I, when everything felt like it was so overwhelmingly hard and all of this stuff was going on, I was like, is anyone dying? And that was because I was dealing with like life and death situations all the time.
So in my head, I was able to go, well, no one's dying. Do we have a roof over our head? Do we have food in our belly? Do we love each other and we tell each other we love each other? Are we getting education? Are we getting the necessities of life? Yes, everything else is inconsequential. Everything else we can get through because these are the only things that we need to survive.
Jenny Brown (09:34)
Yep. I think that's a great little script of just getting a perspective when worry takes over. And there's no doubt, Kristi that parents are more stressed than ever. There's so much pressure, so much expectation to follow the right parenting, tribe and technique and get it right. And to juggle parenting with trying to pay off a mortgage and dependent on
Kristi McVee (09:47)
yeah.
Jenny Brown (10:01)
both partners working long hours, it just gets harder. So worry and fear can take over so easily as you say, and we can catastrophize. And one of the things that I draw from family systems is the difference between just a helpful level of worry and a chronic level of worry. And the way I think about it is we've got the what now worry.
versus the what if worry. So in terms of dealing with fear and worry, if parents can just say, I don't want to invest in the what ifs, which I hear parents do all the time in clinical work. yeah, and I've been there. I've been there as well. Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah. I remember. So it's just, can we just pause, breathe?
Kristi McVee (10:26)
Mm-hmm.
Yes.
Yeah.
I was a water current.
What if this happens? What if doesn't get in there? Yeah.
Jenny Brown (10:52)
look at the facts of today. What are the steps I can take? What's in my control to manage, to contribute to my child finding their own way through the problem they're in today? Not taking over, not crowding them out and just how do we manage today, not all the fears of tomorrow that just we start to then create what we fear, don't we?
Kristi McVee (10:58)
Yeah, what now?
Yeah. And I think that's a good point in that something that I used to always like for myself, for my family, I would say, is it actual or is it perceived? Are we perceiving something that's not happening or is it an actual thing that has happened or is happening? You know, so when we can work out what's actual and what's perceived, because we do that, if scenarios we do, I mean, I'm a what if person, cause I had to plan and make sure that I was in control of a lot of things, but you could, can take over.
Jenny Brown (11:30)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (11:47)
But
when we get back to the nuts and bolts of something in the moment when something's happened, your child's had an, you know, an issue at school, they're not functioning well, or you're feeling like you're not actually doing a great job. Cause as a parent, I'm one of those, mom guilt is a big thing. Parenting guilt is massive. So is it actual or is it like you're perceiving that because of all of these what ifs in your brain?
Jenny Brown (12:12)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, there is such a thing as just good enough parenting, but worry and fear parenting can just totally hijack our development of our own confidence as a parent. So it is a big issue. think of an example of a mum that I met who was so fearful because their child was struggling with their early reading. She said to me,
I'm having dreams about her not being able to complete high school. And this was a five-year-old. That's a classic what if projected into the future. And of course, what does a mother do when they've got that kind of what if fear? She is totally over monitoring her child's learning, her reading.
Kristi McVee (12:47)
No.
learning
more and
Jenny Brown (13:02)
finding things online to help with a reading, doing extra programming. And what does the child do in response to that? They become more needy, more anxious. They pick up on the mother's monitoring and focus. We make a project out of our children. We make a project out of what we fear. And the child reacts to it, which confirms our fear, doesn't it? When a child picks up
Kristi McVee (13:27)
Yeah.
Jenny Brown (13:29)
that we're over worried about them. respond ⁓ dependent on their temperament. They respond with increased helplessness or increased agitation and become difficult and angry. Yeah.
Kristi McVee (13:43)
Yeah, they get angry or they get pushy or like difficulty
or...
And yeah, I've seen both types of kids, know, like sadly with my ⁓ experience in child sexual abuse investigations, you know, that is one of the worst things to happen in a family's life. And so, and to happen to a child. And so I think it's very real that people get so worried about it and the what if scenarios, what if they don't survive, like what if they don't heal? What if they can't, you know, what if, what if, what if, and what I have found is again, this was like seeing evidence
Jenny Brown (13:59)
Yeah is.
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Kristi McVee (14:16)
in the children I was dealing with day in day out is children are so resilient if they're allowed to first of all get you know to feel safe all children really need is to feel safe
Jenny Brown (14:21)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (14:29)
and it's our job to make them feel safe. So as long as they have the necessities of life that roof, food, love, education, and then, you know, that connection with parenting, the parenting person or whoever, they are going to be okay at the end of the day, they might need extra help, support along the way, but they are going to be okay.
Jenny Brown (14:31)
Yeah.
Thank
Indeed,
I'm sure you've talked about this with your history in that really tricky, vulnerable area of child protection and policing, Kristi but there is a real thing called post-traumatic growth, rather than PTSD, post-traumatic stress, that we can grow. So...
Kristi McVee (15:08)
I haven't heard it. Please explain.
Jenny Brown (15:11)
Yet, it's exactly what you were describing, that there are lots of resources in humans for growing even post-trauma. And if we are so worried about our child not being able to recover and reset, we become part of getting in the way of their growth and our own growth through the trauma of
Kristi McVee (15:31)
Yeah.
Jenny Brown (15:35)
dealing with finding out what our child has had to suffer and go through. So we can all grow post-trauma. The stats actually speak to that. I think there's one study, a big study that shows one in 12 people, and this was of soldiers who'd experienced extreme war trauma.
that one in 12 experiencing the worst of trauma, they go on to not have symptoms. One in 12. I mean, sorry, it's the other way around. I've got that completely wrong. It's one, you're probably, I'm confusing everybody. It's the other way around. It's only one in 12 that really gets stuck in the challenges.
post-traumatic stress long term. That the majority, yes sorry, that was not a hopeful message at all. I got that totally wrong. I hope.
Kristi McVee (16:23)
Okay. That sounds much better.
One in 12 don't recover and
it can go on with normal life is what you're saying.
Jenny Brown (16:38)
Yeah
and our families and our relationships are always moving forward so they can we can grow and move forward with whole new patterns in our parenting and our relationships. The past doesn't define what's ahead.
Kristi McVee (16:54)
And look, we don't dismiss what's happened or don't validate what's happened because that's important too. But what I really believe is that if we just focus on the problem all the time.
Jenny Brown (17:01)
It is.
Kristi McVee (17:07)
then no one can actually move on because everyone's like literally magnified on what's happened to them. And what I found is this kids actually are very resilient. They are very quick to like move on because and yes, okay, you might get to adulthood and you might relive some of that and you might that much trauma might come up again. But if we prepare our kids with the fact is, is you can grow from it, you can, you know, we're not dismissing what's happened. It's all bad, but it's not going to define us.
Jenny Brown (17:13)
Bye.
Mm-hmm.
Kristi McVee (17:36)
of people and I think that's one of the things that a lot of people can't let go of the fact is we can move on and it's okay to and it what children actually need Yeah yeah and and that's a that's a whole thing that I used to say sometimes I used to have to pull parents up like I've I've interviewed the child I've dealt with the child the child's like yep let's go get maccas
Jenny Brown (17:41)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And the parents can move on to let the child move on. Yeah.
Kristi McVee (18:00)
And the parents like totally fixated on what's happened. And I'm saying to them, listen, go and get some help for yourself because your child needs you to be stable now. And so please go and get help so that you can be that stable person because if you fall and crumble, they're going to feel responsible.
Jenny Brown (18:00)
huh.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah. I love that basic word stable, just to get as steady as we can be. And Kristi, one thing I'd like parents who are listening to think about that might be surprising is you talked about how important it is to provide a safe and secure environment. Absolutely vital, critical. But there's so much messaging about how much work
parents need to do to make a child feel safe and to attune to a child, to reassure a child, to make sure they're secure. And we make a project out of making them safe and secure. And a lot of that is the messaging from different parenting styles and tribes. And a lot of it comes out of attachment theory, which is a
which it is a sound theory because no one can argue with how important secure attachment is. But I hear that that messaging puts pressure on parents to make a project out of getting a child to be secure. And what that does inadvertently without the parent realizing it is the child shrinks back into an earlier stage of their development.
they because they're being over parented in that area and parents shouldn't feel guilty if they can recognize that it's easy to pull back out of it and create the space for children to lift up. I think it's I don't know what you think of that. I think there's so much messaging on attuning to your child.
Kristi McVee (19:52)
Yes.
I feel your eyes.
Jenny Brown (19:59)
helping them manage their big emotions and there's some good stuff in that but we can overdo it.
Kristi McVee (20:07)
I
think because attachment theory wasn't around when my daughter was born. So I didn't really get caught up in that. But what I did know is what I needed as a child, which was someone to tell me that they loved me, someone to talk to when I was sad and upset. But also I know from my own parenting is that I can't always be the one that helps you emotionally regulate. You're to have to do some of that work yourself. so because when I'm not there, who is,
Jenny Brown (20:23)
Hmm.
Hmm.
Kristi McVee (20:36)
was going to help you. So I know from my experience with my own daughter who very much she's a mummy's girl. Dad was not like leave dad. But when I wasn't around, totally cool. She didn't have the same amounts of meltdowns or drama or she still she still managed to get herself to school or it used to drive me nuts that I would drop her off and she would have a few off at school or at daycare or wherever full meltdown.
Jenny Brown (20:38)
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (21:02)
And then dad drops her off and she's like, see ya. And I would be like, why is it such a big drama for me?
Jenny Brown (21:02)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And that's so useful, Kristi as parents to notice those things, observe our children in different contexts and see how they turn out, turn up differently with different parents, different teachers, different contexts. It's really useful to step back and see that and just think, what can I adjust in how I'm relating to my child?
Kristi McVee (21:21)
Yeah.
I think...
Jenny Brown (21:32)
that can give them a little bit more space to solve their own problems, work their own way through things.
Kristi McVee (21:39)
Yeah, and I personally, think one of the, parents were much older. So I grew up in like that, that see you dinner time kind of parenting style. But then of course I became a child abuse detective. And so I was around, constant, trauma. And so one of the things that I had to really sit with was how do I live, try not to live in the fearful space of parenting and how do I help? Cause everything about parenting,
don't think we think about this enough when our little people come along. And our job is to help our kids become
productive, healthy and happy members of society. But it's a spectrum. it's not a you're just happy or you're not happy. It goes up and down in waves. It's like we all have our moments. We all have our trauma and our difficulties and it's part of life, right? So how do we get them from zero to 18 or whenever they leave home so that they can fly, spread their wings and fly, right? And that's what I was thinking all the time. What lesson can I help my daughter learn right now that will help her in
Jenny Brown (22:19)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (22:40)
adulthood. And that's how I parented from. ⁓
Jenny Brown (22:43)
That is such
a great script for parenting. It just grounds a parent in what's my job description here. Not to make her happy, not to drop everything when they're upset, not to give up my own life direction to make a project out of carrying my child through life, not making friends for my child, not protecting my child from everything. What you're saying, Kristi is just a grounded, basic job description.
of what can I do right now to help prepare them for coping and managing and flourishing in life.
Kristi McVee (23:20)
Hopefully, and even if they can't, even if that's, you know, my daughter is 18 now, so I'm on the other side. And so for me personally, it doesn't end, like the job doesn't end, you know that.
Jenny Brown (23:30)
No, it doesn't. I know that.
Kristi McVee (23:33)
You just know that I think when you get past certain milestones, you realize that all the stress that you had over something, you know, the not being able to read or write at five years old, they're not, you know, the not because my daughter had ⁓ processing learning processing issues, right? We learned that when she was about 11 and 12, we learned that she's an auditory processor. So she needed to have it spoken to her and verbally explained to her for her to be able to process
Jenny Brown (23:46)
Mm-hmm.
Yep.
Kristi McVee (24:02)
So when she was working with one-on-one tutoring, absolutely brilliant. She could pick everything up. She was flowing and thriving. If it was in a classroom environment, she struggled because she had to learn it off a screen or off a book and it made it more difficult. So when we know our children and when we learn how they learn, we find out how they learn and we help them, you just have to put little things in place for them. Whereas, don't worry, I stressed over the not being able to read and write.
Jenny Brown (24:18)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (24:30)
in year two, all the things. But after you get past that milestone and you realise your child catches up eventually, or they find ways around it.
Jenny Brown (24:39)
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I can relate to so many of the things you're saying and I've heard so many other parents just go that journey. And if there is a particular difficulty for a child, we don't need to go searching for it before it will come out naturally and we'll know how to deal with it. And that's hard, isn't it? Because we hear all the time about you've got to recognise the early warning signs.
Early intervention is everything. And it's another one of those paradoxes that I'm putting out there. And there's plenty of evidence to back it up that if we intervene too quickly at the first sign of a possible problem, we can be part of creating that problem rather than just allowing our children to navigate their way through life and
Kristi McVee (25:25)
Yeah, can see how that happened.
Jenny Brown (25:32)
to see what factually comes up for them along the way where they will need a little bit of extra help and support, but not rush in to give it before it's needed.
Kristi McVee (25:42)
Hmm, I can see how it's happened though, right? Like with the amount of education information, the education system's for early intervention so that they can get supportive in place. children, obviously, you know, when they don't fit in or they don't feel like they're, when they feel like they're struggling, their behavior is going to represent some of that sometimes. I think as parents, there's this pressure to like,
Jenny Brown (25:49)
so much.
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (26:07)
We've got to be perfect. We've got to be perfect. It's all got to be perfect. And yet no one is perfect and we all survive. I mean, I'm a, I'm a.
Jenny Brown (26:14)
No.
Kristi McVee (26:16)
It's one of the stories that I have, because I didn't finish school. didn't finish. I had to leave school at year 11 because I was kicked out of home. I didn't have a stable home life in those last few years. But I also became a police officer at 28 with a two year old and wrote a book at 40 and, you know, became a detective at 35, 34, 35. I did all of these things, right? So education, yes, is important, but it's also not the end of the world.
Jenny Brown (26:33)
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's
absolutely not a full stop. Yeah, I say that to parents all the time when I've seen them and they've had an adolescent struggling, missing a lot of school, a lot of vulnerabilities of all descriptions. And the parent is panicking about how do I help them catch up? just to be able to just, yeah, but just as you say, Kristi there are seasons
Kristi McVee (26:46)
Bye. ⁓
like it's a rice or something.
Jenny Brown (27:12)
in the future for catching up. And there is catching up to do. You can't fast track it. It took several years of disruption for many of these kids that I've worked with their parents. Their lives have been disrupted for a long period of time with their symptoms and missing school. You can't fix that in a six session program of tutoring or therapy. It's going to be gradual and that's okay.
Kristi McVee (27:18)
No.
Yeah.
Yeah, I just think yeah, it is and talking about school refusal. That's one of the things that I think you help parents with right so with regards to school refusal, what's your advice for parents when it comes to that because it is such a big deal.
Jenny Brown (27:46)
Mm-hmm.
So hard.
Yeah, so hard. I the first thing is when children, all kids have their times where they don't want to go to school, they get very anxious about something happening the next day that they don't want to face. So in the early stages, we've got to be very careful. We don't get caught up in a worry cycle with the child by over-reassuring them, over-preparing them.
and they become more more fearful of what's happening at school the next day. So that's the first thing that I'd say for those who have children in those beginning stages. But of course,
Kristi McVee (28:32)
Can I ask a question
about the over worrying and over preparing? What does that look like?
Jenny Brown (28:35)
Yeah.
Well, let me tell you an example of a parent with a kindy child who was really doing well in the first term of school. Holidays, going back to school, the child starts complaining, I've got a tummy ache, I'm worried about going to school. mean, this is every one story in parenting.
Kristi McVee (28:56)
Quite nice. Quite nice.
Jenny Brown (28:58)
But what the mom had previously done when her child was worried was she started doing what she'd learned in a parenting course and telling the child all about her big feelings. And I know you've got all these big fearful things inside you and I know it's scary and here's what you can do to manage your fears. And she started making in the past a project
out of taming her child's fears. But she reported to me in this new little protest from her child who'd had that previous separation anxiety in preschool days. She said, I'm not going to try and make a project out of calming her down. Instead, I'm going to say,
that's interesting. I'm glad you told me about what you're worried about. And thanks for sharing that. And let's see what you think when you wake up in the morning. Something like that. She restrained herself from trying to fix it. And her child wakes up in the morning getting ready for school happily. The mother was surprised, but there it is.
Kristi McVee (30:02)
Yes.
Jenny Brown (30:10)
Now that's not a technique that every parent can just follow and expect perfect results, but it is one. You can hear me repeating this theme and I think you know, Kristi I've got a book coming out called The Parenting Paradox. This is one of the paradoxes of parenting that the less we try to fix the child, the more the child finds their own inner resources.
We want to be present with them. We want to be connected to the whole of the child, not the things we're worried about. When we get into that worry cycle, we get stuck with our child. And that happens with school refusal that becomes quite chronic. And I have seen with parents who are doing the Parent HOPE project,
which is just helping the parent discover what's my pattern with my child who's not going to school, what's in my control to change, rather than trying to change the mood and motivation and mind of the child, which of course we all wanna do, but it's out of our control, helping a parent work on what's in my control, which is...
As the things you've said, I can be present, I can cheer my child on in their efforts to get ready. I can help them prepare for getting ready for school, but I can't make them want to go. And paradoxically, the parents that I've worked with and others have worked with with this different approach start to see their child lift up.
Kristi McVee (31:37)
Yeah, that's okay.
Jenny Brown (31:48)
and begin to get back into it. If everyone stops making a project out of getting them back to school and giving them too much input, the child, their capacity to figure out how they're going to manage school, it just gets completely suffocated when we do that. And teachers and schools can get caught in that as well.
Kristi McVee (31:49)
giving them an opportunity to.
Jenny Brown (32:14)
So it's very hard.
Kristi McVee (32:15)
okay, the whole system
can. The whole system can. And I mean, look, my daughter had big feelings, big emotions. I guess, again, her.
When your child is feeling, it's okay to feel, right? But I think we're scared of big emotions, we're scared of big feelings. As adults, we're even scared of them. We're scared of being angry, we're scared of being too emotional. And so when our children get emotional, we feel uncomfortable. But what we actually need to do, and I think that's one of the things that, again, I keep saying, policing actually helped because I had to deal with big emotions, had to be calm in situations. So I was able to sit with my child while she was feeling
Jenny Brown (32:26)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (32:51)
big emotions. Did I get did I feel terrible? Yes. Did I want to be for yes, but guess what? I can't fix everything for you. It's horrible. I'm sorry that this is happening right now. But guess what? What you know, and I one of the sayings I had was sleep always makes everything better. Because this was a because a rested brain thinks clearer.
Jenny Brown (32:54)
Yeah, we do.
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (33:12)
And so it was always like, don't mind that you are feeling big, but we're going to have a sleep. We're going to go and have our night sleep. We're not staying up all night. We're not stressing. We're going to go to sleep. And my daughter, even now, she's like, she loves her bed and she loves sleep. And if there's a problem, she's like, yep, tomorrow I'll feel better. if we can sleep and we don't have sleep issues, then we can wake up and we think clearer. Things are always better the next day. And if it's not better,
Jenny Brown (33:12)
Yeah, that's a one.
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (33:39)
better.
Okay, well, what's what can we do now? Like, what's the next step? But
The other thing that I used to say to my daughter is the difference between anxiety and excitement is what we make it in our brain. so she used to say, yeah, so she I used to say, and because she'd say, I feel anxious, I'm like, are you sure it's anxiety? Are you sure it's anxious? Or are you really excited, but you've decided that it's going to be bad? Like that perception versus reality? Like, and then the last part to it was, you know, we're only really that anxiety only stays for the first few seconds.
Jenny Brown (33:52)
That's good.
Mm-hmm.
Kristi McVee (34:12)
once we start and do things. Once we get past that, goes.
Jenny Brown (34:14)
Yeah. ⁓
Kristi that reminds me of another problem I'm hearing about out there and from schools that the more they are using mental health literacy programs, guess what's happening? More and more kids are labeling normal emotions in mental health labels. And there are studies showing that their literacy is going up with these programs.
to help them recognize when what anxiety is, what depression is. Their literacy is going up. The stigma of owning a mental health diagnosis is going down. So that's all good. But the studies are also showing that their mental health is actually getting worse when you give yourself that label.
Kristi McVee (35:02)
We're magnifying it. We're like putting a big spotlight on it and saying, well, and it does. I know that when, you know, for my mental health, I left the police with PTSD. I don't know if you knew that. when I left the police with PTSD, all I remember, because everyone wanted to give me medication.
Jenny Brown (35:04)
Okay.
Kristi McVee (35:21)
And I'm not saying medication isn't a good requirement. Like for some people, it's definitely a buffer just whilst they're, but I have a high capacity. So I was like, I need to feel it to heal it. So I'm going to have to go through it first. And so I spent the first 12 months after going through all of those big emotions. The thing is, is that I had a massive capacity to hold that. Now, if I hadn't have been through. Yes.
Jenny Brown (35:24)
It can be a buffer for sure.
Yeah, that's your post-traumatic growth, Kristi
Kristi McVee (35:48)
Exactly. Like when you were
Jenny Brown (35:48)
that we talked about earlier.
Kristi McVee (35:50)
saying that I'm like, wow, and I look back on it and I go, actually, like I now am grateful for what I've been through. And I look at it from a place of, well, if I hadn't been through all of this, would I be doing this now? Could I have done everything I'm doing? Could I, you know, can I be brave and speak on podcasts and go on TV? I wouldn't, because I would be too scared.
Jenny Brown (35:56)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah,
yeah, yeah, that's a great, great testimony to not getting caught in a label that keeps you stuck. And we don't want that for our kids either.
Kristi McVee (36:21)
It's a reason, it's not an excuse. I say that to my daughter about her diagnosis, my husband. There are reasons why we might be struggling, there are reasons why we might need a little bit of help, but they're not an excuse for not doing the things we want to do in life.
Jenny Brown (36:23)
Woohoo!
crew.
Yeah. Kristi can I, I'm just thinking about how much I've talked about some of the problems out there and the messaging at schools, on social media. So I want to just put out there for parents who are listening, what you do to turn it around that is completely in your control. Cause we need that. We need a hopeful way forward, not just being told visa.
Kristi McVee (36:43)
Yes, please.
Jenny Brown (36:59)
problems you need to watch out for and these are things you can do that inadvertently make things worse for your kids. And on one level, if you can recognize your part in that, that's a first step to things changing. But one of the most valuable things that I have learned from theory and research and applying it in my own life and helping parents as well is
Kristi McVee (37:12)
awareness.
you
Jenny Brown (37:24)
The parent makes himself a project and here's what it looks like in a few ideas. Let's go back to the child who doesn't want to go to school again or is having a meltdown or lots of big emotions rather than try and coach the child through their emotions to just get in touch with self and be able to say to a child,
Kristi McVee (37:29)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Jenny Brown (37:46)
Here's how I'm feeling as your mum who loves you, watching you struggle. I'm having my big feelings now because I love you and in my heart, I just want to protect you. But I know the best thing I can do is get out of your way and give you the space to figure this out. But I'm here to cheer you on. So you hear that a parent is
Kristi McVee (37:51)
Yeah.
Jenny Brown (38:12)
speaking from themselves to the child rather than telling a child how they should think and feel and what they should do. And there are lots of good ideas like that in terms of the parent I position where a parent can say, here's what I'm willing to do to support you. And you can list all the things that are in a parent's control to do. I can
Kristi McVee (38:26)
Yeah.
Jenny Brown (38:37)
make your favourite smoothie in the morning, that just might make the mornings a bit brighter when you're finding it hard. All the things we can do without taking on the project of getting the child out of their difficult situation. So here's what I'm willing to do to support you, but here's what I'm not willing to keep doing. I'm not willing to write a late note for you.
Kristi McVee (38:40)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Jenny Brown (39:03)
with an excuse it isn't real, because that's not how I want to love you. That's not how I want to prepare you for life. Things like that. All the things we can say no to in a loving way, because we can just show our kids, no, I'm not going to drop everything that I'm doing right now to rescue that homework project.
Kristi McVee (39:08)
Mm.
to that.
Jenny Brown (39:28)
do it with you. I'm not going to do that. I know how hard it will be for you to deal with that, but I'm not willing to do that because then I'm being part of a problem for you in the future. It fits with all the things you've been saying, Kristi but does that make sense that parents just working out what they can say yes to and what they can say no to from their principles? Yeah.
Kristi McVee (39:44)
I with you. Lots of things like that in my life.
⁓
Yeah, don't get me wrong. I think sometimes there's a little like sometimes we focus on things that aren't really important and then there's no reason for us to rescue our kids from them. And then there's other things that you know in crisis and stuff like that we have to you know assist and help. But in those small moments where that be are very small and we we're not having to rescue them. Well you know for instance one of the things that my daughter had a
Jenny Brown (40:00)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (40:18)
break up with her friendship group when she was in year nine. I couldn't.
Jenny Brown (40:21)
⁓ year nine,
the worst year for girls.
Kristi McVee (40:24)
It's disgusting, but I am for parents and for kids because like we're going through it with them. But you know, I couldn't rescue her from that. All I could be was there as a support for her. So what I did was I said the exact similar to what you said is that I just said, look, as your mom, this breaks my heart seeing you go through this. And I wish that I could change it, but I can't. we can not actually, we can't make people like us and we can't make people want to be around us. All we can do is know that we have done
Jenny Brown (40:25)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Kristi McVee (40:53)
everything possible in our in the moment to be a good person and know that you know not everyone's going to like us and not we're not going to like everyone else and I said that a lot when she was a little girl like not everyone likes us and we're not we don't like everyone that's okay but we can be nice that's all we need to be we don't be rude
Jenny Brown (41:02)
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I bet that opened up some
good conversations, Kristi along the way where you can say, what do you think of that way of approaching it? And yeah, invite them to give their opinion on that approach to life.
Kristi McVee (41:18)
Yeah, yeah all the time. ⁓
Would you handle it like that? Or would you, you know, would you have done it differently? Like I just, I used to, when I saw how people related and, and had conversations, like, would you have done that differently or would you prefer to do it that way? Like how would you do it? okay. So my now 18 year old has moved out of home because she felt ready to do it. Is she ready? I didn't think she was ready, but she's like, let me go. I'm ready to go. And she's off and racing. And I just went, okay. And I again had to set, step back and go, it's not.
Jenny Brown (41:30)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (41:55)
about me. None of this is about us but we make it about us because we all of our fears and our problems come up when and we look at us from our little person like we start relating to our kids but it's not about us it's about them.
Jenny Brown (41:56)
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, agree. Well said. Yeah, I mean, we've just, had someone say to me yesterday, the main thing for parents to work on and grandparents and through life is to restrain our natural instincts from taking over because we're protective. Just to regulate what you hear people talking about emotion regulation, self-regulation. Well, parents, if we can,
Kristi McVee (42:12)
Hahaha!
Healthy. Healthy.
Jenny Brown (42:37)
self-regulate our protective instincts. That would be a real gift to our children and ourselves.
Kristi McVee (42:41)
That's so tough though.
I overheard my daughter saying to her boyfriend once that he had obviously done something that he was really upset about. he obviously he was feeling a lot of shame and guilt and I overheard her say to him, do you feel bad? And he said yes and she said good because you won't do it again.
Jenny Brown (43:02)
Ha!
Kristi McVee (43:03)
And I think I might have said that to her. I think there's something to life in this. Well, everything is in it.
Jenny Brown (43:03)
Yeah, it's funny the things that our kids pick up. And of course, the things
we hear ourselves saying that our parents said and we swore to ourselves we'd never be like that. You've got to have a sense of humor, don't you? The things that we pick up and it's trial and error and it's messy. And if we can just get over trying to make it perfect.
Kristi McVee (43:26)
Yeah.
Jenny Brown (43:31)
that would be a really good thing.
Kristi McVee (43:33)
From a parent of two very young women and a grandparent of two young, of grandchildren, do you look back and you think, I worried about too many things? Is that what you reckon? Like I look back and I go, I worried about things that weren't important. So my advice to parents is don't worry about the small stuff because they all work themselves out.
Jenny Brown (43:49)
Yeah.
Yeah. Look, I have made plenty of worry mistakes over the years. I'm really grateful, Kristi that I came across Bowen Family Systems Theory of a key family therapy approach when my children were quite young. They were preschool and early school. And it hasn't turned everything around because I am who I am. I've inherited all of the stories and
Kristi McVee (44:10)
Yeah.
Jenny Brown (44:20)
patterns and fears from my family of origin. But it really did give me a roadmap for changing some of the worry habits that I naturally had. I've seen the difference that has made. I'd love to be able to offer that to others. And what I will say, I I had the benefit of that because of the study I was doing. I was doing my masters at the time and
Kristi McVee (44:35)
I
Jenny Brown (44:45)
and program in couple and family therapy. were living in New York at the time. So I was really fortunate that my professional life gave me this input that I could apply to myself as a wife and a parent, both sides of it. But I will say that the most anxious parents out there are my colleagues in the profession.
Kristi McVee (44:56)
experience.
appearance.
Yeah.
Jenny Brown (45:09)
psychologists, psychiatrists, the social workers, the counsellors, because we put extra pressure on ourselves to have to get it right. And we can fall into the trap of being extra worried and anxious.
Kristi McVee (45:11)
So is it because we are with you too much?
I think that like.
I mean, I think it's Garba Marte says two parent, two children can grow up with the same parents and have the two different childhoods. So it's, I came to the realization that you can do it all and your child will still come back to you as an adult and go, you traumatize me. So how about we just do our best and take responsibility for when we haven't done it great. And you don't know what you don't know in the moment. So just do the best. then, you know, hopefully when, when your child gets to the end
Jenny Brown (45:41)
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (45:55)
and they go, hey, I see that you did the best, but this wasn't so great. And you go, I am so sorry. And then you guys move on and keep going. Like that's hopefully where you go with it.
Jenny Brown (46:05)
Yeah and that's just showing ourselves to be real with our kids and to represent our values and our principles around apology and recognising when we get things wrong. That's powerful for our children.
Kristi McVee (46:21)
It's powerful for everyone.
Jenny Brown (46:22)
Mm-hmm. Yes.
Kristi McVee (46:22)
Even our partners, even our families, you know, or even our
friends, like it's powerful to apologize and really mean it. It's we don't, you know, we should never apologize if we don't mean it. But at the same time, like, again, I think what we've really gotten, what we're really saying in all of this is that lets us as parents look at what we can do for ourselves so that we can like let our kids help themselves and grow through that as well. Because if we're not regulated, if we're not, if we're trying to rescue all the time because we feel inadequate
Jenny Brown (46:29)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (46:52)
or we feel bad or we feel, we're actually not helping our children very well.
Jenny Brown (46:56)
Yeah, yeah, totally, totally agree. And what I would say, we could talk and talk, Kristy, but I'm just feeling what's the key thing I want to leave out there, which is for us parents to just recognise that the love that we have for each of our children has got to include giving them the breathing space to grow, to manage their own problems.
To learn how to relate. If we crowd them with our worry, they become reactors, not relators. So just to love them, not stop loving them, but to direct our love towards giving them space to grow.
Kristi McVee (47:35)
That's amazing, Dr. Jenny. Now, where can anyone find all of your resources and all of your information?
Jenny Brown (47:41)
Mm-hmm.
Search parenthopeproject.com.au and there are lots of resources there for parents. There's a free parenting course in this approach that parents can find, lots of blogs, a podcast covering so many topics as you're doing, Kristi And there's also
Kristi McVee (47:47)
in the show nights.
Jenny Brown (48:02)
a lot of training courses for professionals because that's where I'm really wanting to put my energy after all these years in the field, helping the professionals know how to best come alongside parents, not intimidate them, not blame them, not overwhelm them, but walk alongside them.
Kristi McVee (48:22)
Yeah, yeah. And look, I think when we need help, we would need to make sure it's with the right people. But also I always say, you know, as psychologists and counsellors and therapists are like a pair of shoes, some fit, some don't. And we can all do, you know, we can all work it out. It doesn't mean that one size fits all. I find that with therapy and stuff, people go, it didn't work.
Jenny Brown (48:28)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (48:45)
But it's not, you just didn't find the right person. Thanks, Dr. Jenny. I really appreciate everything that you're doing. And ⁓ I think that it's, think what your book's going to be amazing for parents, because we do need a little bit of, ⁓ let's just like, let's take the pressure off. Let's take some of the pressure off parents, because they can't do the best work when they feel pressure.
Jenny Brown (48:48)
Mm-hmm.
Ciao!
Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely.
And so the book is out in July, but it can be pre-ordered and it will be an audio book as well. And it's coming out in hardback, so it's on the more expensive end with the Bloomsbury publisher. But go to your local library, get them to get it in if the price gets in the way.
Kristi McVee (49:18)
Yay! Love the auto.
Yeah, we will.
I will put it all in the show notes so people can find you, but I think that's amazing, Dr Jenny Brown. Thank you very much.
Jenny Brown (49:35)
Fantastic.
Thank you, Kristi I've enjoyed the conversation.
Kristi McVee (49:41)
You're amazing. Thank you.
Kristi McVee (49:43)
The thing that's going to stay with me after this episode is if we crowd our kids with our worry, they become reactors, not relators.
and we need to give them the breathing space to grow. You can find Dr. Jenny and all of her resources at the parenthopeproject.com.au and her book, The Parenting Paradox is available to pre-order now, which is out in July, actually. I'll put all the links in the show notes. If this episode resonated with you, please share it with another parent who needs to hear it because honestly, I think we all do. Until next time, stay safe, keep talking to your kids and I'll catch you up in the next episode.
