Kristi McVee (00:00)
Hey, welcome back to the Conversations with Kristi podcast. I'm your host, Kristi McVee former detective specialist, child interviewer and child safety educator. Now today's guest is someone I genuinely adore, Gen Muir from Connected Parenting. Gen is a social worker turned parenting educator, author of Little People, Big Feelings and a regular face on the Today Show. But what I love most about Gen is that she doesn't just tell you what kids need, she helps you understand why it's so bloody hard to give it to them and then actually shows you how to do it.
We talk about connection, emotional regulation, why we lose it when our kids lose it and how 10 minutes of the right kind of attention can shift almost everything. We also get into the high, buffalo cards, repair after rupture and what it means to raise kids who actually want to talk to you when it matters This one is genuinely for every parent, whether your kid is 2 or 20. Let's get into it.
Kristi McVee (00:51)
Hello and welcome back to the Conversations with Kristi podcast. I'm laughing because Gen and I have no idea what we're going to talk about today. Welcome Gen Muir. I am so glad that I finally got you on my podcast, you busy woman. ⁓
Gen Muir (01:04)
It took us
a little while and like we don't know how much we're get done now because we've just spent the last like 20 minutes
Kristi McVee (01:10)
15 minutes
catching up. Oh my goodness. Okay, everyone. So
the beautiful Gen Muir is on my podcast finally. And it's such a pleasure because I connected with you about a year and a half ago, maybe two, we've been following each other. And then you're in Western Australia. And I was like, I'm going to go and drive and meet Gen in person. And it was so hilarious because when I showed up, I felt like you were like, oh, Kristi's here. And I was like, in awe of you, you're amazing. Like I swear everyone should see if you've got young children or children or you're a parent
grandparent you should go and see you speak or hear you speak because
the advice that you gave in that presentation, and I can't even remember what the title was, but it was just such an amazing presentation. And I was just sitting there and all thinking, why didn't I know this stuff when my own daughter was younger? And every time you post stuff that's like, I could have so used that when my daughter was younger, like so much in so much goodness in what you share, because it's real stuff. And it's helping parents feel, you know, that they're not alone and that and all and the one
that you just said to me is all children need connection and that's why you're called Connected Parenting Online. So Gen, thank you so much for coming and speaking with me but also if you could just explain to my listeners if they've never heard of you before because where have they been their whole lives if they haven't heard about you? ⁓ No, but if they haven't heard or seen me share some of your stuff, exactly how did you get into this space of sharing all of this knowledge?
Gen Muir (02:32)
Now
Yeah,
look, I am a social worker by degree, I and I've worked in I've worked in mental health. I've worked in the legal space. So legal policy in domestic violence and yeah, sort of all kinds of areas of social work. I never, ever intended to become a parent educator.
So the fact that I'm here and I've written a book and I'm on your podcast, like it still blows me away that I'm here. And so my journey around what kids need actually is a really deeply personal one. was a mum who started out thinking that if there was a mum that would win the mum Olympics for being the most perfect mother, it would be me.
And mostly because I was a social worker, I really thought I had a good grasp of what kids needed. I'm also the daughter of a family therapist who named emotions before it was cool. So I sort of thought, look, I'm coming into this really strong, right? And then I, like all of us, was just as humbled and brought to my knees by the big feelings and tricky behaviors of my little kids, which is why a lot of my stories are about little kids. But essentially that humbling and that kind of
like getting broken by my kids in those early days and finding that it's not enough to just know what kids need. It's not enough to have the information. What we actually get stuck with is being that in the moment. So we can know that kids need to be seen and heard. We can know that we have to have the kinds of conversations you advocate for that protect kids, right? And yet in the moment, doing that and saying that when it wasn't necessarily modeled for you is really tricky. So that was kind of the
the catch that I hit that I have all the knowledge. And then I thought, well, if I'm struggling, everybody's struggling. So my journey around my parenting was deeply personal. I went off and just started educating myself. I learned how vital having an understanding of attachment and why we struggle when our kids struggle was. And then I found myself, look, really long story short, but I was just in a job at the Marta Hospital. I was actually doing bereavement work. I was working in the area of stillbirth. I had done a grad dip in
grief and bereavement, but I was also doing the parent education courses. And I just felt like all of these pieces of who I was merged into this like, just this amazing, I don't know even how you describe it, but suddenly it fell into place. And then everything that happened from there, like I actually left a 17 year career at Legal Aid. then I like, you know, just
Within two years of that, found myself with my Instagram page, I found myself on TV, I got asked to write a book and everything kind of unfolded from there. So to my friends, it looks like I just suddenly switched careers, but actually my passion for attachment and what makes a family tick, began like really through the way I was parented. It began many, many years ago before I even had kids. And then it was something that I really, what I really wanted to know was despite
knowing it all, why couldn't I be that for my kids? Why when my child was crying, do I want to punch a wall? And that's what led me to sort of understand, well, where do we get stuck? And really that's what I'm doing for parents. It's not so much educating them on what kids need. I think parents know that stuff. I'm trying to support them in how to be that.
Kristi McVee (05:59)
Yep. Yeah. Well, that's so
so real and you know, even I was thinking, I was thinking about our conversation this morning while I was getting ready and I was thinking, you know, one of the things that I love about your page, what you share with people is that like you're super real about it. You know that people, in the moment, some of us really struggle and I've got to be honest, like I'm no perfect parent either. I definitely had to do a lot of, you know, going back and apologizing to my daughter when I had an outburst.
and all that repair work. And I was really good at repair because I knew I never had it. So I was like doing it unconsciously. was just like, didn't want to leave her feeling like mom's yelled at me or mom's got angry at me and it's my fault. So I would go and repair. But that's something that I have since found out from pages like yours. that, all of this is really important in keeping that connection with your child because we're human and modeling human emotions and behaviors is okay as long as we make the effort to
first all, change and second of all, or like not do it as much or whatever it is, you know, like how can we and you're right. I think one of the things in your presentation was, that, you know, in the moment when your child's losing it and you're like, well, yeah, I think it was the banana story that really stuck with me. Here have the banana and then you broke it up and your son didn't want the broken banana and you're like, I can't put the banana back together and it's like the last banana and like, and you just sat down with him and that's
story really got to me because it was literally that your son just needed to let it all out and then he ate the banana.
Gen Muir (07:31)
Yeah, think, I mean, the reason I love that story, the reason I tell that story is that it's this story of like, in the moment, how we, when our kids are struggling, or yeah, mostly when they're struggling, we will try to fix it or solve it or stop it or do something even unconsciously. And so modern parents, they're usually not smacking or sending kids away for having those emotions. Most of the time we're doing things a bit different to previous generations.
But no one's really taught us how to do that. And so sometimes we find ourselves instead of punishing, we're fixing. We're running on this treadmill of like, chop it up, I'll put it in a bowl. I'll, you know, I'll, here's the logic. Like I don't have bananas or, here, have another snack, watch the iPad, I'll distract you. And actually what our kids need, what we all need is just to feel seen and heard.
Kristi McVee (08:04)
Thank you.
.
Gen Muir (08:21)
You know, just to have someone go, I can see that you're having a tricky time and that's really hard. I had the most beautiful story the other day. I was working with a bunch of families up in Toowoomba. I was at the Motherland Conference and this beautiful mum said, my husband is like fourth generation farmer. you know, not only does he not come from a strong line of males that modeled emotional intelligence, but in his kind of family of origin, not only could he not be sad, like boys don't
Kristi McVee (08:38)
⁓ tough.
Gen Muir (08:50)
cry, he couldn't even be joyful without being told to settle down. So you can imagine for these modern dads that are raised like third generation Aussie farmer, and he's working really hard at his parenting. she said, he's learned this one phrase whenever our two year old is upset about something, he just says, it's tricky, mate. And I was like, oh my God, I love that. Because actually, that's all you need is that capacity to go, how can I just narrate what's actually happening?
Kristi McVee (09:12)
Yeah.
Gen Muir (09:17)
I don't have to do anything about this. And actually that's what our kids need most of the time, but so hard to do, but so, so important because inadvertently, if we're fixing and solving and panicking, our kids won't come to us and share the stuff. And so it is about making life easier when our kids are two, but it's also about being that parent that they're willing to come to at nine and at 11 and at 16 when they're struggling, which is a huge goal for me.
Kristi McVee (09:45)
Yeah, I love that. I absolutely love that. I think
what I'm learning and I'm cool to share. Like I'm going through some counseling and therapy myself. I constantly am in and out of therapy. I have been since I was 20 years old dealing with all of the things that I've gone through, but I'm back in therapy at the moment to just go through some big feelings I've been having, especially because my daughter left home. And yeah, and one of the things that I realized is I'm a rescuer and I guess I became a police officer. So that really, that tracks, right?
And I'm a rescuer. I want to rescue and fix everything for everyone. But the thing is, that by doing that, and this is what I'm learning, by doing that, I've actually blocked my loved ones from actually learning how to rescue themselves.
Not to it, not all the time. Like I only rescue for certain things and I only like, and I have gotten better over the years of like stepping back and going, yeah, that's really tough. Work it out kind of thing. Like a bit of tough love sometimes for me. I could have said, that's tricky. And then, sat there with like compassion, but Kristi like, yeah, tough love. It's like, that's tough. Go on, get on with it.
Gen Muir (10:49)
I mean, I think we've all got those patterns and I think one of the really cool things about the world that we're living in now is that we're sort of talking about not just how to talk to kids about their feelings, how to talk to ourselves and our friends about their feelings and we're much more able to have these conversations about this is something that I find really hard.
you know, we develop patterns in the first five years. What I think is really interesting for parents to know when it comes to why do I struggle to sit in the moment with a child? Why do I struggle to regulate myself when my child is not regulated? You know, it's something I'm so passionate about parents knowing it's really not your fault. But it's really that how you feel about feelings gets established within your system within the first five years. And actually,
By 11 months of age as a baby, you'd already learned to predict which emotions your parents felt more comfortable with and less comfortable with. And more significantly, by 11 months of age, you were showing less of the emotions that just didn't make your parents feel comfortable. Like by 11 months, like, because we are a social species, we are wired for connection. And if we sense even as an 11 month old, that something is going to put a gap between us and our primary caregivers. Like when I...
cry or when I showed this kind of frustration emotion that makes my parents panic or not feel good, I'll show this to that, right? Because I want to bring myself closer to my primary caregivers always. And so by the age of five, through millions of interactions, where you've showed an emotion or a behavior and you've been responded to in the way we were all responded to, like, go to your room, you get a smack for that, settle down.
we don't carry on like that in this house or if you don't turn that front upside down the wind might change and you could get stuck like that. You learnt in your court that didn't bring me closer, don't do that. So push that bit down and then we grow up and we kind of you know we muddle our way through the world but nothing will bring that to the surface harder and faster than your own child displaying an emotion that was unsafe for you to show.
Kristi McVee (12:51)
Yeah.
Gen Muir (12:51)
But the biggest thing, like that can sound very dire and people go, God, well, I'm screwed and my kids are too. Cause I didn't know that. And now the first five years is over. No, it's, you know, it's, it's not to say that it's actually to offer yourself compassion. So if you're in the kitchen and you know, I always say, two examples, but toddlers and teens, right? So in the kitchen and your kid is, you say no biscuit because we're about to have dinner.
Kristi McVee (13:11)
Yes.
you know. ⁓
Gen Muir (13:17)
and your
child says, no, I really want a biscuit and then their hand is on the cupboard and they're trying to get one and you flip out, it's not because you're not patient or you're not calm enough or you need to do more deep breathing or you need to read more parenting books. It's actually because all that feeling or that behavior, that defiance that your kid was showing that, or that anger or whatever that underlying feeling was.
That wasn't safe for you to do most likely. Most likely you learned that's not a cool thing. And so your system learns to protect you. And so your system learned to fix or solve or save, right? That was a protection mechanism. It served you well. And so then it's about becoming aware of that and going, well, is this serving me? Can I catch that and either go with my automatic pilot to fix or solve or snap or whatever, or can I meet the needs of the child in front of me?
Kristi McVee (14:08)
Yeah.
Gen Muir (14:08)
And when
you, and really it's about a pause. It's really about a pause, but just so hard to do. But if you don't know that this thing is playing a role in all your interactions, you don't even know to grab the pause. So I love parents knowing that because the single biggest thing we could possibly do to be more of the person we want to be in the moment is actually be really kind to ourselves in that moment and say to ourselves, I say it all the time.
Kristi McVee (14:19)
Yeah.
Gen Muir (14:32)
You're really good parent, really tough stuff. I find this really hard. Whatever it is, you acknowledge it. And then you've now got like infinitely a better chance of being that parent that you want to be for your child, even if it's fumbling and imperfect. And like you said earlier, the beautiful thing that modern parents are doing is repairing. Every parent I work with without a doubt repairs. Everybody does it. And I always ask them because I'm curious.
Did your parents ever say sorry to you? Never. No parent ever did. They didn't know, right? So that's fine. I think it's just bloody incredible that these parents are all repairing and that two single biggest things we know that make a difference for our kids in terms of long-term relationships and emotional intelligence is can a parent be reflective? So not perfect, not naming every feeling, not doing things a specific way, right? Doesn't matter whether you're breastfed or bottle-fed, but.
Kristi McVee (15:07)
Yeah.
Gen Muir (15:26)
Can you be reflective and go, that didn't work so well, how am gonna kind of do that differently or, know, and two, can you repair? They're the things that matter. The rest of it, there's so many ways to raise a child and it's a dance between two people.
Kristi McVee (15:34)
Yeah.
Yeah, it is. you you think that like you make me laugh. Like I thought I had the best upbringing and all of this stuff and I was a therapist. My mom was a therapist or whoever was a therapist and all of these things. And then you go, yeah, and then my kids come along. And I remember you're the best parent before you actually have children because you think that you know it all. And I remember, you know, I didn't have my daughter too. I was about 26, 27. I remember thinking, yeah, I've got this. Yeah, I've got this. And then she come along. I was like, no, no, no.
Gen Muir (15:59)
I know.
Kristi McVee (16:10)
got nothing. I know nothing.
Gen Muir (16:13)
And it's interesting you
said that because I did, had this sort of beautiful family growing up and I found myself wanting to punch a wall every time my kids cried. And so I put myself into a circle of security class in this community center to learn how to be a better parent. And I still sat there going, well, these people might all need this, but not me. I don't even know why I'm here. Within about three weeks, it was like a glass.
know, wall shattered between what I couldn't see before and what I could see. And really was a thing of like, which emotions in your family of origin could your parents, you know, be with you in? And I was like, well, my mom was a therapist, all of them. And then as it unfolded and I reflected, I was like, oh, she couldn't do sadness at all, which is why I want to punch a wall when my kids, because
Kristi McVee (16:56)
Richard.
The sad.
Yeah.
Gen Muir (17:01)
my kids
are sad, that doesn't feel safe for me because I couldn't get my caregiver at that time. And that was not like my mum did an amazing job with where came from. I'm grateful, but she had her limitations based on what was given to her. And I always think I look at where my parents came from, my dad came from like the slums of Liverpool in England. His dad died.
Kristi McVee (17:09)
Yeah, but that's because you couldn't see it with your own
Exactly.
Yeah, not much compassion, not much
safety.
Gen Muir (17:27)
Gosh no, and I think of actually how well he did and how well my mum did based on where they come from. And then I think our job as his next generation is to do even better. And that is why I am such a huge fan of the work you do. You know, we've talked about it before, but you know, it's just something that I became so aware of being the kind of person that...
Kristi McVee (17:32)
Thank you.
Thanks.
Gen Muir (17:51)
kids came to with their problems as a young person because I've got that helper sign on my head. So I've always had that and I was you know I remember being a camp leader and just having so many kids come to me and disclose things that have happened and then I went and ⁓
Kristi McVee (17:59)
Thank you.
Gen Muir (18:09)
majored in child sexual assault and domestic violence at university and just got a sense of just how prolific this problem is and how rarely kids do disclose it. And so raising my kids, having these conversations young and early and upping the skills in myself to do that was something I worked really hard on. And even with that knowledge and even with that background, I've still made so many mistakes along the way in having those conversations. Yeah.
Kristi McVee (18:34)
Fine.
When it's your child, hey, we're experts when it's other kids, when it's our kids, it's a whole different ballgame because I think we underestimate and I say this to parents all the time, like you put your child in front of me, I'll probably ace it, put my own child in front of me. I'm like, it's not because of anything, it's because you have that, you really want them to be safe. really, that connection that you have with your kids, how much you care and love it for them. It does put up barriers, but you can easily work through those barriers through
Gen Muir (19:04)
Yeah,
just hang on.
Kristi McVee (19:04)
honest,
I always would say to my daughter all the time, you know what, no one ever talked to me about this and I'm finding this really tough. Like, I don't know how else to like share this with you. So I'm just going to say it. And then I would say it and she'd be like, ⁓ yeah, I already knew about that. And I'd be like, cool. All right, let's go. Let's get into it. And then, you know, that initial like first step.
Gen Muir (19:18)
Yes.
Yeah,
totally. ⁓ I mean, when I was a kid, my parents, like the only conversation was the book, Where Did I Come From was just left on head. They said, read it, just come out with any questions you've got at the end of it, you know, and I've tried to have really kind of ongoing and, you know, careful conversations. I've tried to use the correct names of body parts. I've tried to
Kristi McVee (19:33)
yes.
Gen Muir (19:49)
really introduce an idea of consent with my boys from a really young age and not necessarily, I sometimes think the way that can get talked about, can feel really out there, like are you gonna ask your newborn for permission to change their nappy? And you kind of do go, yeah, I get why people sort of scoff at that. But I think...
rather than getting really specific about that, if we can just be willing to just narrate what's happening for our kids from a really young age, you know, and even I love saying to newborn parents, like, you know, learning to say to your young baby, as they're crying, and you're changing their nappy, and they will be crying, you'll you say something like, I know you don't like this almost, right?
Kristi McVee (20:34)
Yeah.
Gen Muir (20:36)
So we just say something like that. And like that statement, I want to explain like that is so powerful. And you might think that's so silly because a newborn doesn't speak yet, right? But here is what we know. 90 % of communication is nonverbal. So even as a newborn baby, when they're distressed and that caregiver is showing on their face. And so when you say that, what they see is, my gosh, yes, there's empathy, right? So they feel empathy.
Number two, you're describing for someone who's powerless to describe an experience they're having. So when we talk about what our kids are seeing, feeling and experience, and we narrate that for them, what happens is they feel seen. And feeling seen is just so powerful. Thirdly, it regulates our own system and it just develops this beautiful sort of pattern where we're able to sort of do that for our kids. I reckon that's one of the most significant things that you can start doing from a young age.
for your kids.
Kristi McVee (21:31)
Because if you started
at baby and you're starting at newborn and you continue that through toddlerhood and you continue that through young childhood and then, but you're already having like, I agree with you 1000 % because I'm not saying how you ask for consent. You're just explaining what we're doing to them. We're telling them and we're, you know, we're giving them like that, you know, that validation, that confirmation that we hear them.
And then as we get, as they get older and we're still listening, we're still conversing, we're still sharing. And, know, by the time they're in teenage years, all of the conversations we've had, it compounds so that they feel safe to keep coming back to us and talking to us. I feel like we underestimate the value.
Gen Muir (22:11)
Yeah,
I totally agree. And the other thing I think that's made a really big difference was learning to narrate the interactions between my kids. one of them, one of the most like honestly, the game changer in sibling interactions that I got was from an OT. My kids have needed a lot of OT for various reasons. For anyone who doesn't know what an OT is, it's an occupational therapist.
And there are two kinds. There are some that help your kid with pencil grip and there are some that help with social and emotional and regulation stuff. they are like, they're like angels that walk the earth. I think every kid needs OT. But anyway, my kids needed a lot of OT and I learnt that when they were fighting, instead of getting in the middle of every interaction, just going, cut it out you two, go to your room, that I would narrate. And so you'd say something like, so your kids are fighting on the trampoline, for example, and you know that in,
Kristi McVee (22:42)
Go.
Yeah.
Gen Muir (23:00)
27 seconds someone's going to be crying instead of saying cut it out. You say something like this. You say, see two kids. and I can see you're having fun, but I'm looking at Liam's face and I think he might be a little bit worried. Should we check if he's okay? And that first of all, that changed my life because my kids learn how to read nonverbal social cues. They learn how to communicate under pressure. They learn. So you think about that long term.
that if two people are interacting in some way and one's not having the best time and this person's been taught to notice the face or the body, his shoulders are hunched, he's pulling away from you, he's crying, I don't think he's liking it.
Kristi McVee (23:36)
Yeah.
It seems simple but it's not simple because some people don't say anything.
Gen Muir (23:44)
It's not simple and it's not simple particularly for little boys. They don't read those non-deaf
views as easily as little girls. And it's not that they're not big hearted and it's not that they don't want to get it right. They don't. So we can narrate that for our kids. So that's cool, right? I went, wow, that's really helping my kids learn to get on better with people socially. But now that I know what I know, I'm like, my goodness, that was teaching consent. And imagine if every little boy
got taught and not just that, you teach the kid that's not speaking up. If you're not liking that, what are some of the things you could say in that moment to tell him you're not liking it or to stop the game? So like that to me, I reckon is just one of the coolest things parents can do. And it has this short term impact of like your kids will learn to fight effectively. Really important, but this longer term impact of, you know,
Kristi McVee (24:14)
little
Gen Muir (24:40)
We assume that the skills around reading social cues, speaking up for ourselves, help seeking are innate. They're not. Some of us know.
Kristi McVee (24:47)
No, they're not. We should never assume anything. But you're right.
Can I
question about that. is there any like, what's the research or what's the reasoning behind narrating it? What does it do in the moment? Do the children then obviously, like understand each other's body language and can and I guess it puts a like a timeout in the moment to hey, like, did you notice that you're, you know, they're not enjoying it? Do you find that the amount of fights and struggles between siblings cuts down or do you just
Does it give them that unawareness that, oh, wow, my brother's not happy or my sister's not happy? Okay, well, maybe I need to back off now.
Gen Muir (25:28)
So that's such a good question. I could, do you have 24 hours? No, it's such a good question. Biggest thing I'd say is this, all kids are born with all their feelings, right? So feelings here, skill level here. That's just how it is. It takes 25 to 28 years for that skill level to reach full development. So the prefrontal cortex that helps kids regulate, read nonverbal cues, be compassionate.
Kristi McVee (25:39)
Yep. Down here. Yep.
Gen Muir (25:53)
Be kind like all of the stuff and help seek and impulse control that 25 to 28 years. So we've got emotions up here, skill level down here. Emotions are at the back of the brain, skill levels at the front. When kids are playing and excited, skill level drops even further. So they're likely to not have some of those skills that would help them just go well, be pro-social. We're trying to have people be pro-social, right? Not anti-social. ⁓
Kristi McVee (25:57)
Yep.
Yeah, yeah,
yeah, yeah, gotcha.
Gen Muir (26:18)
Yeah, and so when we name what's happening for our kids, what happens is we actually bring, we name entertainment. So we bring an emotion to, from the back of the brain to the front. We literally build the synapse. Like it takes lots of repetition. But when you say to a toddler who's crying, you're sad, I can see on your face and you have to overdo this stuff. But when we name it, we actually bring it to the front. It not only makes the child in the moment feel like, ⁓ you get it. And now I'm
Kristi McVee (26:33)
Yeah.
Gen Muir (26:46)
problem and that in itself feels great when done effectively and at the right moment, which like is hard to do. But that narration stuff that when we narrate for the baby, you're not liking this. Same thing, it's like the empathy is one part of it. It's unseen, which is this core need of all humans that you need to feel seen. But the second bit is I'm kind of narrating that experience for you till you can do that. And we know that like
you know, girls are minimum two or three years ahead of boys in that capacity to bring an emotion to the of the brain and articulate it. So a little girl at three might be able to say, I feel this or, you know, whatever, maybe depending on a little boy, unlikely. And then those skills are constantly building. But also it depends on other factors. Like if a kid has
Kristi McVee (27:25)
Thanks.
Gen Muir (27:36)
a body that's still working out where it is in space, if there's proprioceptive issues, if there is a diagnosis, all of those factors are going to impact that child's ability in the moment to sort of regulate and kind of get that out. So when we narrate it, they're A, they're learning to sort of read those social cues. So just say we've got a kid.
who loves hugging and they get so excited and they get so overwhelmed like a toddler and they go up to all their friends and they just throw their arms around them and that makes their friends feel really uncomfortable because they're just trying to warm up. you know, our instinct might be don't, she's not liking it. Whereas if we can go, so this is what I'd narrate. I can see you are so excited to see your friends this morning at childcare, but I'm looking at your friend, Sabah, and she needs a little bit more time with her mom.
It sounds exaggerated, but we're so, and I can see that because her shoulders are hunched and she's grabbing her mommy and she's standing behind her mommy's back. So now our kid who's good hearted and well-meaning, we're kind of bringing that kind of knowledge of like, so when the shoulders go up and when the person goes behind the back, they're kind of needing a bit of space. And now I can run a pro-social way of like getting on better. Ultimately, our kid's just gonna have a bit of time in life.
Kristi McVee (28:43)
Yeah. Yeah.
Gen Muir (28:50)
We want to get on with others. We want to be liked and that matters. And we also want our kids to be able to read those social cues and not make those mistakes that hurt others.
Kristi McVee (29:01)
Yeah. Wow. That's really important.
I talk about early warning signs, right? And it's the same sort of principle except I do it in a similar way, a different way of helping children understand.
they're when they feel safe and scared or unsafe and safe and those in between emotions of like risking on or those in between things like risking on purpose and fun to be scared kind of things. And by naming them, when we follow them, we're and then the next part to it is help seeking, right? So you're having that, okay, what we do when we feel that is we do this and we reinforce that we don't have to deal with them on our own. We don't have to feel that way for long. We just need to go and get help.
And I think that's a similar thing, but ⁓ it's just really interesting because for me, like dealing with little people and interviewing them and stuff, the ones that actually had people who narrated and talked to them and shared them and helped them understand their feelings. Those kids were able to go and get help quicker than the ones who didn't because they had the language and they had the knowledge and they had that connection, right?
Gen Muir (30:00)
Yeah, 100%. And I want to give a really great example of help seeking for parents that want to bridge the gap because even saying you can get help for some kids, that's really hard to do. So one common scenario I deal with with parents is an older child that's hitting a baby or a younger child, right? Really, really common. And it's so normal and nobody panic if it's happening to you.
And I talk about, you know, here are some of the things we can do. We want to connect with the older child. We want to set boundaries. We're always stopping the hit. Like there's core rules in my household. No hitting is one of them. So I'm always like, can't let you hit and I'm getting in the way of that. But how do we then emotion coach our child to do something different in the moment? Because why do we hit? It's high emotion. My sibling annoys me. I'm feeling jealous. They touch my Lego.
low skills in the moment, even if I know no hitting in the moment, I don't have the capacity to find that knowledge because the emotions are too high. So we've got to help our kid bridge the gap between the skills and the emotions. And what I say to parents is you can teach your kid that, you know, I'll always help you if you're struggling with hit, you know, it's feeling too much and you want to hit your sibling, I'll always help you. And if you can't tell me, just come and squeeze my hand.
and I'll know what it's about. And so often I get a call from parents and then I say to parents, and if your kid squeezes your hand and says, want to hit my sibling, it's so important you say, thank you so much for telling me, I will always help you with that. Let's set you up at the table. And you can say, look, can't, whatever. Doesn't matter, but it's so important we say, oh, I'm so glad you told me. And I say to parents,
Kristi McVee (31:37)
Thank
Gen Muir (31:40)
The day your kid says, and sometimes kids will say it in a way like that, like a toddler will come up and say something, they'll squeeze your hand and go, I want to put the baby in the freezer. And you'll think, my gosh, my child is a psycho. kids will articulate, because they're learning how to articulate a feeling. What they're saying is I'm jealous, I can't stand it. But it comes out as, I want to hurt the baby, I want to put it in the freezer. Or like they do say this stuff, right?
Kristi McVee (31:51)
You
Yeah.
Yeah.
Gen Muir (32:07)
And if we can go, thank you so much for telling me. I'm so glad even just once I'm telling you that amount of thing, it just dropped 50%. Your child just activated because the skill is, can I catch that climb and squeeze the hand? And if you get them that far, then I tell you they then learn the next time it happens, they'll just move themselves away. Like they don't even like it goes so quick from that ability to help seek.
Kristi McVee (32:30)
Yeah.
Gen Muir (32:35)
And so I love introducing the hand squeeze. And if there is like a parent also with a kid who's struggling to help seek at school, which is really common, like how do I tell the teacher? Same thing you can say to the teacher, is there a way that my child could put a little card up on the desk if they need help with their work? Because putting their hand up for something and saying, I need help with this, and yet know that that capacity to help seek is so important.
Kristi McVee (33:00)
Yeah.
So important.
Gen Muir (33:06)
term. And so how do we help our kids with smaller steps if that task of like, just tell the teacher, just tell me it's too much. I love this idea of you know, and I say to ⁓ parents of slightly older kids, tell your kid that you could have a little diary that they write a letter to you and stick it under your pillow with anything that feels hard to say if life gets easy and you can write back and you can kind of keep that going. So it's like, how do we find little ways to
open that dialogue and make it easy.
Kristi McVee (33:37)
Yeah, 100%. And I know you're right. mean, part of my conversations with kids stuff is like to help to teach kids how to talk about their what's going on for them and when they feel unsafe and if something happens.
And you know, some kids like they still struggle no matter how much we've we've shared with them and how much we tell them. I mean, there's a lot of different reasons for that. But one of the things that I think I've learned over the years from people like yourself and other experts in this area and other people who train this is like, find what works for you. Find a code word. Find a like one parent I heard had like a like this ceramic
Gen Muir (34:12)
Yes.
Kristi McVee (34:16)
cactus and if the ceramic cactus got put on the bench it meant that the child had to say something or got pulled out of the drawer and it meant that they had something hard to say and they didn't know how to say it and they needed compassion and empathy and they needed you to like the parent to be really calm and so they had that like little code or you know and I think that's what it really means is because I don't know I remember being a child who didn't have anyone to go to and I didn't have that compassion and empathy I've never
felt safe to say anything to anyone because part of my
childhood was that I wasn't allowed to speak up. I had to be quiet, right? So that feeling is so, that's possibly why I feel so strongly about giving the language, helping children seek help, having those safe conversations with kids because they need to know that they can get help. Because that's when you feel like you've got no one, that's when you feel lost. And I would never want a child to feel that way.
Gen Muir (35:12)
No, no, neither would I, and it is so hard. I think temperament, like I've got four boys and one of them, you know, I mean, he tells me like every detail of everything. It's so unique, right? And one of them, it's, you know, it's not that he was parented differently, but gosh, he finds it so hard. One of the things I do with him, like I can, I try to watch for just that pulling away and that quietness.
Kristi McVee (35:25)
Thank
Gen Muir (35:40)
And then I try to use connections. So one of the things I did with this particular child, because he does struggle with anxiety, one of the most powerful connection things I ever did was start reading to him at night, even though he reads, he's a really good reader. And I said, I just really want to read just with you. And then if I ask him questions about his day, he just can't answer. Like he just freezes. So I started to a bit of like,
Kristi McVee (36:00)
Yeah.
Gen Muir (36:04)
just thumbs up or down. And I'd sort of ask questions and he would just give me up or down. And then he is the reason I also developed my Hi-Lo Buffalo cards. It just, you know, and the difference with him of kind of having that ritual around. For us, we have this ritual at the table where we play Hi-Lo Buffalo every night. And ⁓ at first, of all my kids,
Kristi McVee (36:12)
Yeah.
Gen Muir (36:26)
they all share and it was great. But this one kid, he would go skip, skip, skip. And I'm always like to parents, make it low pressure. So if you've got a kid that is like this, like really hard to crack, let them skip. So he would skip, skip. And then eventually he started just giving a high. So just say, this dinner's the high. And then after like, as we kept it going, so it became this ritual. Every night, they know we're gonna say, what's the high, what's the low, what's the buffalo? Or we're gonna get the cards out and we're gonna play the game.
And eventually this one night he got to the low of his day and he just cracked open about this struggle he was having at school that he couldn't like he was too anxious to do this test and what the teacher had done and everything came out all at once. And that's when I went, my gosh, other families need this because it was actually the ritual, the going back and not giving up the safety of him knowing every night this high and this low buffalo is going to get asked.
Kristi McVee (37:07)
Yeah.
if that happens.
Gen Muir (37:19)
and now he can answer all three. So it's like, it's come so slowly though.
Kristi McVee (37:23)
takes with practice
and like the repetition, the repetition and then the normality of it, like the fact that it's just a part of what we do and it's okay if you don't want to, but eventually like I bet you any money from because I, you know, I've suffered with anxiety. I've done hard things sometimes even just speaking out loud in front of your family is hard. And so just struggling with that.
Gen Muir (37:45)
Yes, for this kid, it is. And all of our kids have different,
you know, there's different things that impact their ability to speak up. And for this kid, you know, he is the older brother of a younger brother who has needs. And sometimes we call those kids, you know, we call them windowpane kids. get sort of, they try to make themselves a bit invisible because of the needs of ⁓ other children. And so as parents, it's sort of knowing, that doesn't mean he'll just never speak up.
Kristi McVee (38:06)
Let's.
Gen Muir (38:11)
It just means like, how do we bridge that gap? How do we give him hand signals? How do we use ⁓ a tool like Kylo Buffalo to kind of help him just in a way that feels safe, open up.
Kristi McVee (38:16)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah. And I think that's a good, like your high-low Buffalo cards, like game changes. And I know that you've had nothing but great reviews from families and the connection that they're getting from their kids, because that's something that a lot of parents say to me, like, what do I, how do I connect with my child who doesn't want to talk to me? And I'm like,
Well, first of all, you just have to keep going. Second of all, you know your child best. I mean, I think your cards are one of the best ways to be able to bridge that connection. But also, you know, the thing is, is that a lot of us don't consider that our children aren't all chatty Cathys like I am, or, you know, some of them read and they need it in like, like in a book, or they need to see the thing, or they need to practice it, or they need to, you know, maybe it's something that they need to role play.
They don't.
Gen Muir (39:09)
The
biggest tip I would give parents is think about what lights your child up, what they love, and try to join them in that world. And I'm like, if your 14 year old just wants to watch Instagram reels, send them a reel. Like find a way to kind of connect where they live. If your kid loves Minecraft, learn about Minecraft.
Kristi McVee (39:14)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Gen Muir (39:32)
learn
about that thing and if your kid wants to play on the floor with trains or Lego, join in there. So I think it's like catching that thing and joining them somehow in that and it can feel a bit awkward to find your way in but if you authentically keep trying I feel like that's definitely
Kristi McVee (39:37)
put down on the floor.
yeah
and kids want you to just be in their world with them like they might like see like and they and they know when we're like bullshitting right so the kids are the best bullshit meter in all of it so if you're it's so frustrating because they can read you like a book but I used to as my daughter got older I just proved like we used to role play we used to play together and then as she got older
Gen Muir (40:03)
noise
Kristi McVee (40:14)
And she started pulling away because that's a normal thing for teenagers and young teens to do. I just moved into whatever she was doing. So if it was Fortnite, if it was, you know, whatever I just like, I even made my, we had Mario Kart and I used to go right Sunday, we're having a Mario Kart off. Like we're all sitting at the, you know, and I just made, you know, she liked online gaming, but I wanted to game and I didn't really want to play all those games. So I made, I played a game. I knew I could win.
Gen Muir (40:41)
I love that.
Kristi McVee (40:42)
It became like we started sledging each other and we sat next to each other, we weren't looking at each other and during that time, those times, if she had been pulling away a bit, I'd be like, so what's happening? Like, because we're trying to kill each other in the cars. And I feel like I think we underestimate just how getting on their level.
really matters to kids and just being in that moment with them and not looking at our phones or not talking about our stresses or not worrying about things because our kids can see and hear and they know. So I think big tips.
Gen Muir (41:12)
If there is
a biggest bang for buck interaction or hack that I could give any parent that wants to kind of help their kid. And I would say no matter what, whether you want to foster connection or whether you want to help your kid with the behavior, if your kid is doing your head in with meltdowns, picking on a sibling, struggling at school, anxiety, like name a problem.
The single biggest intervention that we can do as a parent is 10 minutes of fully focused one-on-one time with our child where we join them in their world. And to add power to that, you want to anticipate it. I can't wait for time with you. I can't wait to spend time just with me and you. In the moment we're two feet in, we're not folding the washing or on our phones or half out the door. We don't have an agenda when we're trying to teach them or coach them or give them advice.
Kristi McVee (41:51)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Gen Muir (42:04)
And then maybe later that day you go, best part of my day was talking to you. That is the single biggest thing. No matter what the problem, it is where I would always start. And parents sometimes think, if my kid's picking on their sibling and they keep hitting them, isn't that just rewarding the behavior? And I'm like, it's absolutely not. Like if you can get in and fill that child's emotional cup, well now when you help them learn about a way to be kinder to their sibling or what is gonna work and not gonna work in terms of boundaries.
They're in a space where they're actually able to take that on because the connection's there. If the connection's not there, nothing else is going to work.
Kristi McVee (42:39)
And I actually think that this is not just for kids, this is for partners, this is for family members, this is for everyone. Like really, I mean, it requires a bit of buy-in from the people that you want if they're adults, but for your kids, know, I think we can all agree that they deserve it and we deserve it. Like we wanna be connected to our kids. We wanna feel like we don't wanna be in a battle with them all the time. ⁓
Gen Muir (43:02)
But I want parents
to know that that's not even something you have to do every day. That is something that you can just do every now and then have it in your back pocket as like, my kid's not okay or my kid's doing my head in. I am going to spend 10 minutes joining them in their world. That is kind of the way I think about it.
Kristi McVee (43:06)
No.
I agree with you. And I think that's for me, like if you are trying to talk to your kids and they're not even engaging, then you need to go back to like, like, as my PT would say, we need to regress this because you're not ready for that. So then regress it to the bit where you're actually like, you can manage it. And so that, you know, 10 %
Gen Muir (43:31)
Yes.
Yeah, I mean,
I'm a realist and like a lot of my examples are little kids, but I have a 14 year old and a 16 year old. And sometimes, you know, it starts with just like, offer them food, offer them food, offer them a really fun snack, buy them some cool cookies and just like, go in slowly, but start with food.
Kristi McVee (43:47)
Yes.
Yeah, I know. I am I with my teenage, she's now an adult. used to, I used to even though she had the job of like getting ready for work and getting herself ready, I used to go when I needed when I thought she was struggling or when I thought she needed, I needed to talk to her about something hard. I'd go, Would you like me to make you breakfast this morning? And she'd be like, ⁓ thanks, mom. I like your that's so great.
Gen Muir (44:20)
I tell you, mean,
like kindness, you know, one of my kids just constantly forgets he's got a shift on a Thursday night and you just want to go, how could you have forgotten? And I just, try to just think model kindness, you know, one day he'll be deciding about whether I go into the nursing home or not. So I'm going to go in with kindness here.
Kristi McVee (44:31)
It's every Thursday. What are you doing?
Gen Muir (44:46)
And then you just notice the difference. if we can just be kind, you know, before we teach, you know, that connection before correction, I think always.
Kristi McVee (44:56)
Yeah
and it's I mean look it's not always possible and sometimes we've got big emotions ourselves so I think it's about I think the whole purpose of what you're saying is is we need to like sit with our own emotions what what we're feeling in the moment and then then we can help our kids best.
Gen Muir (45:11)
Mostly like,
moment if parents can be kind to themselves, if you can just acknowledge that what you're trying to do as a modern parent is really hard, it is not for the faint-hearted and it's not to be done perfectly ever, right? And then afterwards that ability to reflect even and think, I didn't get that right. I would love parents instead of berating themselves and saying, I need to be better at this, I need to try harder. Instead of that, try just saying,
I'm really doing the best I can. I'm a really good parent. The fact I'm sitting here caring at night is like, that's definitely a sign I'm a good parent. And then from that place, we're able to go in and really like the goal of repair, it's not even I'm sorry. It's, hey, I didn't like how that felt between us and I wanna get us back on track. If it feels like your relationship is like off the tracks, the goal of repair is just how do we get that back on track?
Kristi McVee (45:43)
Yes.
Yes.
Yeah, yeah, no, perfect. Well, I think everyone should get a set of High Low Buffalo cards and I think everyone should be following you. So just tell the listeners how they can follow you, where they can find your book and your cards because I think the thing is, is that you have given so much value to people just in those, those resources already. And every fortnight on the Today Show, I see you.
Gen Muir (46:27)
So my Instagram handle is connected to parenting AU and the High Low Buffalo cards you can purchase through highlowbuffalo.com.au and my book Little People Big Feelings is available on the High Low Buffalo cards website so you can get both in one place and save on shipping which is really cool. I've got a second book which is coming out in September called
Kristi McVee (46:45)
Yes.
Gen Muir (46:50)
Why Kids Need Boundaries and I'm really excited about it. It's not about bringing back hard-ass boundary setting. It's about helping parents to be that kind of confident leader that kids need without reaching for threats and punishments and bribes, like feeling like we've got that capacity to kind of really lead our kids.
in a world where parenting is feeling more demanding, more confusing and more scary than ever, this should bring a lot of peace.
Kristi McVee (47:19)
and lot of clarity. I think that's going to catch some people's eyes when they see Why Kids Need Boundaries. That's a great title. well, I can't wait to promote that when it comes out as well. So thank you so much, Gen, for just, you know, always being an amazing, amazing leader in this space and just helping parents because I think
Like you said, we're all struggling even as a parent of an adult. said, you know, no, I said to my mom, does it ever get easier? She's like, they just get older and the problems get bigger.
Gen Muir (47:42)
Never ends.
Do you know, right before my mum died, so she was, she was dying and ⁓ my brother had a head injury and he came off his bike and he was really struggling with his mental health and with his, as can happen with a head injury. And my mum, like, you know, honestly, sick as dog just basically moves in and she sat in his yard with him until she got him talking and then, you know, knew he was okay. And it was almost.
Kristi McVee (48:15)
you
Gen Muir (48:16)
the last thing she did and it's just like, wow, you just never stop mumming right to the end.
Kristi McVee (48:20)
No, no and I love that because we're always going to be mums and dads and we're always going to be parents. No one can take that away from us. So thanks Gen, I really love you, you know I do.
Gen Muir (48:27)
No.
I love it too.
I mean, I know this is your podcast that everyone knows you're amazing. But I just think that the work that you are doing in helping parents have these conversations and I know it because it's always been an interest, but I know that you are doing it in a way that is so bloody sensible and so important. so I am so grateful to have a resource like I can send parents to you want to know about this stuff. This is who you need to talk to.
Kristi McVee (48:50)
Thank you very much.
No thanks June, you're a legend.
Gen Muir (48:59)
Okay.
Thank you.
Kristi McVee (49:01)
Thank you so much for listening to today's episode. Gen Muir is just the real deal. She's practical, warm and completely no BS about the hard parts of parenting. I hope you got as much out of this conversation as I did. And as I said in the podcast, I really wish I had known what Gen is sharing with parents when my little one or my big one was little.
If you want to follow Gen, you can find her on her Instagram @connectedparentingAU and her High Low Buffalo cards and book, Little People, Big Feelings are both available on her website, which is all in the show notes for you. She's also got a second book coming out in September, Why Kids Need Boundaries. So keep an eye out for that one.
If today's episode resonated with you, please share it with another parent who needs to hear it. And if you haven't already, subscribe so you don't miss an episode. See you next time.
