Kristi (00:00)
Hello and welcome to the Conversations with Kristi podcast. I'm Kristi McVee, and today I'm so happy to have Michelle back on the show. Michelle and I have been doing some work together over the last few months around safety and having conversations with kids, and with her new book, Friendship Smart, just out, I had to get her back in for another chat. Now, today we're talking about sleepovers. It's one of the questions I get asked most about, and so does Michelle, and people often assume I'm anti sleepover.
I'm not. I'm just anti-unsafe sleepover. We can't remove all risk, but we can think about the risks we're about able to manage and we can prep our kids well before they walk out the door. In this episode, Michelle and I talk about the questions to ask other families before saying yes and what it tells you when a parent won't answer them. We look at why your child's stage of development matters more than their age and why the late night hours at a sleepover are where things are most likely to go wrong.
Michelle also shares her practical and genuinely fun approach to hosting sleepovers. She covers the 20-minute planning chat with the kids, the mix of high and low energy activities, the spare room for kids who need a tap-out, and why are late over with a 10:30 pm pickup might give your kids all the memories without the risk.
We finished with Michelle's friendship framework, straight out of her book Friendship Smart and how to teach the kids the difference between a soft no and a hard no. So grab a cup of tea and let's get into it.
Kristi (01:24)
Hello and welcome back to the Conversations with Kristi podcast. I am super excited to be having a chat with Michelle Mitchell again because Michelle and I have done some work in the last couple of months in regards to, you know, safety and having some conversations with kids. And I had to get Michelle back on because she's got her book out, Friendship Smart. And with there's so much going on for parents at the moment, and I thought, what better
way than to get another podcast out here to talk about, all the things that our kids are going through. And one of the things that I really wanted to talk about today was sleepovers and just, you know, some of the ways that we can equip our kids better and just understand a bit more of what our kids are going through. So thank you so much for being here today, Michelle.
michelle (02:08)
it's my pleasure, Kristi. I care. Like I care about this space with our kids. And I watch
Kristi (02:14)
I know.
michelle (02:14)
the news like any parent does. And I'm having conversations with my kids all the time. And the world does feel a bit heightened. And I know that our kids need to walk through it more, you know, I guess wisely. And I think what's different about this generation of parents is we're parenting with different information in our hands. And that
Kristi (02:34)
Mm.
michelle (02:34)
makes that information
and the decisions that we make more heavy. It's heavy to carry right now. And I think parents need these conversations and they need to be thoughtful about the decisions that they're making.
Kristi (02:47)
Yeah, yeah. It is heavy at the moment and I think our young people feel it as well.
michelle (02:51)
They really do. And they're talking amongst themselves a lot. Yeah. They're watching the news
Kristi (02:56)
Yeah.
michelle (02:56)
as well. Yeah.
Kristi (02:57)
Well, and it's not just the news. I mean, if they're on social media or they're in the classroom or they're in the school yard, they're talking about the issues that we're talking about, but sometimes they don't have the same amount of wisdom, knowledge, experience, or they're having whole different experiences than what we really think that they are having. So yeah.
michelle (03:15)
Well, I think
of the news like this, it's like there's levels of the news now, isn't there? They're reported in different ways in different platforms, but they come from one source and then they trickle down in different ways.
Kristi (03:27)
Mm.
michelle (03:27)
And even like what we're seeing perhaps overseas, and then it trickles down in different ways. then influencers have a conversation about it, kids have a conversation about it. So news takes on different formats.
Kristi (03:39)
Yeah. Yeah. And that look, our kids are going in I mean, sometimes they're not getting the full story or they get, a little snippet and then they run with it. Like I know that I used to my daughter used to come to me and say, have you heard about this? And I'd be like, Where did you hear it from? you know, like so sometimes she would and it would like, TikTok and I'm like, Have you gone and fact checked it before you
believe it because that's the thing. When we see something online we're like, Right, that must be a truth. And so I always recommended that she go and fact check things before she goes and shares them. but yeah.
michelle (04:14)
Yeah. And do you find that our older
ones too, they've fact checked it all. And then when they come and talk to us, I'm like, whoa.
Kristi (04:20)
Yeah.
michelle (04:23)
And you know X, Y, and Z. And can you tell
Kristi (04:25)
Yeah.
michelle (04:25)
me a bit more about that? And like they're actually like pulling me up and giving me more information to some of these stories as well. So it's crazy the information that they can find on things.
Kristi (04:37)
Well, they deep dive into it too. Like I think that's the
michelle (04:39)
Show the
Kristi (04:40)
that's the thing that I'm finding now is that our our kids, our and our young adults, they're not just taking things at face value, they're actually going
michelle (04:48)
And
Kristi (04:48)
into it and finding out as much as possible. and almost becoming mini experts on the subject and then like you said, you know, educating us on stuff. So I really think from my ex experience with young people is we need to listen to them and hear what they have to say.
Even if it's something that you're like, well, why are we even talking about this subject? Because they are like they're not just taking the first answer as gospel sometimes. especially when it's they're very passionate about it. I I reckon this generation is more passionate about like they're not living under rocks like we might have been as, you know, in the eighties and nineties or whenever we grew up. We kind of just went, well, it doesn't bother me, it's not my problem. But our kids today, it is there.
It's really worrying them what's going on in the world.
michelle (05:32)
And they have that real social justice bent, some of them. And they're very much thinking around some of those bigger global issues that are being discussed.
Kristi (05:42)
Yeah.
michelle (05:43)
Yeah, gender issues, all the rest of it. So they're they're very immersed in it. So I'm finding the debates very robust with kids
Kristi (05:50)
Yes.
michelle (05:51)
in high schools and in kids in their twenties.
So they deep dive and they rabbit hole and
Kristi (05:56)
Yeah.
michelle (05:57)
they are educating me. So yeah. But our tweens,
Kristi (06:00)
They're educating me.
michelle (06:01)
Yes. Yeah, our tweens, yes. They come to us these little pieces of information that they've heard from their older siblings or on the playground and you go, hang on, kid.
Kristi (06:11)
Yeah.
michelle (06:11)
Sit next to me for a minute here. Yeah.
Kristi (06:13)
Let's have a look.
Yeah. what I wanted to dive into is sleepovers because that's one of the the conversations that a lot of parents like I had a podcast last week or the week before where I was asked about sleepovers and because people naturally assume I'm anti-sleepover. and I'm like, no, I'm not anti-sleepover, I'm anti-unsafe sleepover. So sleepovers that haven't considered just some of the risks involved, right?
and at some point it's not that we can remove all risk, but we have to consider risks that we can manage. And so I wanted to just dive in with that with you as well, in regards to how do we manage some of these things and how do we talk about them and how do we prep our kids? Because we can't protect them from everything, but we can prep them. And so
I
michelle (06:58)
Yeah.
Kristi (06:58)
think that would be a great way to start off and to discuss, what's your thoughts on sleepovers and
where do you think we can help parents with this?
michelle (07:06)
And let's make this a real discussion, Kristi because I feel like these topics take on different scenarios depending on the home, depending on, you know, the relationship that families have with another family. And no one size fits all. But what you brought up right there is scaffolding safety. And I feel like that more and more parents are needing to do that within their kids' friendships.
Because I don't know, I see kids playing a lot, but I don't see them playing well. And I'm seeing
Kristi (07:34)
Mm.
michelle (07:37)
the need for parents to come in and scaffold this area of to safety more and more. So kids can have a really great friendship experience. And even
Kristi (07:46)
Mm.
michelle (07:47)
if parents say a blanket no to sleepovers because they do have safety concerns for whatever reason, maybe it's because they're trauma in their background.
Or maybe it's because they're unsure of another family's values and don't know them well enough.
Kristi (08:01)
Mm.
michelle (08:02)
I don't feel like that necessarily takes away some of the beautiful childhood memories that we've had in sleep hopers. I mean, I remember like pizza, spotlight, I remember staying up late. I remember the thrill of just being away from your parents for hours
Kristi (08:17)
Yeah.
michelle (08:17)
and hours on end and it being exciting. But what's wrong with picking kids up at 10 o'clock at night?
And in some
Kristi (08:23)
Nothing.
michelle (08:23)
ways, in this day and age where we maybe haven't had that long-term relationship with people and we don't feel a hundred percent safe, I feel like my children are my most precious cargo and I'm not going to hand them over to just anybody. So if
Kristi (08:38)
Yeah.
michelle (08:39)
parents are not a hundred percent sure, I say err on the side of safety, of caution.
And that doesn't mean that you're robbing them of childhood memories. It just means that we need to reinvent them and shape them a little bit differently. But let's get into this, okay? I feel like the moment we feel uncomfortable about asking the hard questions, we've got the problem. So I say to parents, look, if you can't start a conversation with another adult that says, My child's safety is my highest priority. And these are some questions that I ask every day.
family when my child has a party invite or a sleepover invite. If you can't front up and do that, then there's a problem
Kristi (09:22)
Mm.
michelle (09:23)
to start with. So think warm energy, straight questions. And that shines a light on who we are as adults in our kids' lives to start with. And that can
Kristi (09:35)
Mm-hmm.
michelle (09:35)
be really confronting for us as adults because
I think a lot of parents think if I say to another parent who's supervising, will be they be there the whole time? Is there anyone going to be drinking alcohol? You know, who else is going to be in the house? Is there going to be older brothers and sisters? You know, how will technology be managed? Where will the kids actually be sleeping? You know, these kind of questions.
Kristi (09:58)
Yeah.
michelle (09:59)
I think we think that that's interrogating someone else, but no, it's actually doing our job as parents. What do you think?
Kristi (10:06)
Mm.
michelle (10:06)
Kristi.
Kristi (10:07)
A hundred percent like everything you just listed there is exactly what I would want to ask. And also, you know, I had a parent actually, because I've got a checklist on my website, and I had a parent contact me because it was a sleepover party for for a school friendship group. they didn't know the other parent very well, that everyone was invited, kind of thing. And
michelle (10:26)
Yeah.
Kristi (10:26)
she asked some questions and she got, well, if you don't think I'm safe enough, then just don't bring your child.
And I feel and she felt really whoa, exactly. That's what I said to her.
michelle (10:33)
There's your answer. Yeah.
Kristi (10:37)
I said, listen, if that's the response, then they're not the people that you want babysitty like looking after your child. and
michelle (10:44)
Aw hell yes Yeah.
Kristi (10:48)
but yeah, she's like, but I'm worried about my daughter missing out because now everyone's gonna be talking about
michelle (10:52)
Yeah.
Kristi (10:53)
it at school and she's gonna have FOMO. and I said, Well
all you can explain to her this is that you spoke to the other parent and you know like you weren't happy with the level of safety or you don't even have to explain it you just say, Hey, we've actually got this on. it depends on the child, what do you how would you handle that? Yeah.
michelle (11:08)
The age. Okay. This
is the challenge, right? It's the age of our kids where this starts to get tricky. And I just had an email this morning from Mum actually and said, How do I handle this? Because it's school holidays here in Queensland. And a mum dropped her daughter off at her friend's house, but the mum didn't even come out and say hello. The mum's never met this. Yeah, I know.
Kristi (11:29)
I know. What's with that?
michelle (11:30)
It's like, what is this? This.
And her mum's like, I actually feel like I'm dropping my kid off and I don't know where I'm dropping her. I haven't asked these questions, Michelle, but I've got a 14-year-old who's staring me down, going, Don't you dare come to the door, you know? So,
Kristi (11:45)
I would've.
michelle (11:46)
yeah, of course. So we've got these age brackets, Kristi that I feel like we could cover together now because
Kristi (11:54)
Yeah, yeah, let's
do it.
michelle (11:55)
Yeah, I feel like when they're little, like this is just non negotiable. And by little, I mean I'm talking about cognitive development here. I'm
Kristi (12:04)
Mm.
michelle (12:04)
talking about the capacity to think complexly or concretely, where they're not thinking
Kristi (12:10)
Mm.
michelle (12:10)
in a way that they can even assess moral judgment. So, okay, let's divide it into two parts. We're talking about, and it's not just about an age, it's about a
Kristi (12:19)
No, it's not.
michelle (12:20)
stage of development. So parents
you know your kids.
Kristi (12:24)
Yeah.
michelle (12:25)
So when they're thinking in a concrete way, they're not able to walk in the room and hold tensions and they're not able to really think about complex things and really make complex decisions. They're not really thinking about morality in a way of how does that impact me and
hold two tensions together, like someone else can
Kristi (12:51)
Mm.
michelle (12:52)
be thinking in in a different way than I'm thinking. They can't
Kristi (12:55)
Mm.
michelle (12:56)
put themselves in somebody else's shoes and also hold their own ground at the same time. It's very, very difficult for them to see that someone else has got a perspective and that they've got a perspective. So
Kristi (13:06)
Gotcha. Yeah, so
just to clarify, if your child isn't able to see someone else's point of view or perspective and all they can really see and feel is their own, then they might not be able to is that what you mean?
michelle (13:18)
Thank you so much for making that clear. Yeah, because it's there is so
Kristi (13:20)
Okay, cool. I'm I'm glad I'm following.
michelle (13:23)
good. So good. Because there's a lot more to it than that. But that is actually
Kristi (13:26)
Yeah.
michelle (13:27)
just the best way. So let me give you a really better example. You know the days where your kid came into the bathroom and you're like stuck naked, they don't even notice. They talk
Kristi (13:37)
No, no.
michelle (13:40)
about whatever they want to talk about and walk out. And they didn't even consider how that might have felt for you. Right? They've got
Kristi (13:47)
Yep, yep, yep.
michelle (13:48)
They didn't put themselves
Kristi (13:48)
Gotcha.
michelle (13:49)
in your shoes at all. Then they get to this age where it might be 12. For some kids, it's even 13. For some kids, it's 10. And they start
Kristi (13:56)
Mm-hmm. Yep.
michelle (13:58)
to go, hang on, mum's having a shower
Kristi (14:00)
Yeah.
michelle (14:01)
and she's on the toilet or whatever. And they all
Kristi (14:03)
Yeah.
michelle (14:04)
of a sudden start to think to themselves, that might be a bit uncomfortable for mom. I can hang
Kristi (14:09)
Gotcha.
michelle (14:10)
and hold on to this information for five seconds, or I can stand on the other side of the toilet door and talk to her.
That's the
Kristi (14:16)
Mm-hmm.
michelle (14:16)
difference. You can start to see them shifting. All right.
Kristi (14:20)
Mm-hmm. Gotcha.
michelle (14:21)
So I really think that's a turning point for kids. Now, when they're not thinking in a complex way at all, and of course it's not, they don't happen and change overnight. And this is something that they develop and grow into. When they're not able to think complexly, we have to be asking all these questions and we have to be all over it.
When they're starting to think more complexly, they are increasingly, and please let me underline the word increasingly, and yes, now they have the tension of wanting to please their friends and all the rest of it that comes into play,
Kristi (14:56)
Yeah.
michelle (14:56)
but they're increasingly able to, I guess, read the room more. They're
Kristi (15:02)
Yeah.
michelle (15:02)
increasingly able to use language as well to describe their experiences. they're having
a little bit more capacity kicking into play. So you're in different territory, fourteen, fifteen, sixteen, seventeen, than when kids are between eight and twelve. I feel like it's a real danger zone.
Kristi (15:23)
Mm, I've got other points to make on that, but yeah, it is.
michelle (15:26)
Go for it. Why don't you go for it? 'Cause I love your points.
Kristi (15:29)
Well,
well, you know, like without scaring parents to like complete no sleepovers forever, because I had this knowledge when my daughter was in those age brackets. the thing is, this that, you know, we see and research shows that children between three and ten are at more risk of child on child harm than children
michelle (15:48)
The testing.
Kristi (15:49)
over 10 to between 10 and 14. The pre pubescent age group are more likely.
to harm. And so, and it's not like it's gonna happen. but you know, like there is that developmental stages that our children are going through
michelle (16:00)
Okay.
Kristi (16:01)
that puts them more at risk. So, you know
michelle (16:04)
And
it's language as but well, it's the ability to communicate afterwards. it's all those things that kick into play. And these things we have to be aware of. Look, what is the stats, Kristi? It's seventy percent of abuse in these settings happens child to child rather than adult to child, isn't it?
Kristi (16:24)
It's close to so it's over fifty percent now. children
michelle (16:28)
Okay.
Kristi (16:29)
yeah, so it used to be about thirty to fifty. Now we can see that it's actually increased to over fifty. And you know, things like what they're seeing online, that you know, online gaming and you know, early exposure to pornography is actually increasing it for children. then obviously there's the issue with any child that has been harmed then can go on to harm others
if they don't have any therapeutic intervention, right? we're just increasing risk and it's not just risk of like contact offending from one child to another. It's the risk of being exposed to things that we wouldn't allow them to be exposed to at home or hopefully not they'd have exposure to at home. And
michelle (17:04)
That's right.
Kristi (17:04)
if it happens with regards to online exposure, it's not the end of the world.
It's just that we as their safe adults, we need to be there to just make sure that they understand what they've seen so that it doesn't go on to create issues down the track. And so that's a whole another part to it.
michelle (17:21)
And maybe we need to point
out too that this doesn't just happen at a sleepover. Like that's really important as well. So it's
Kristi (17:26)
No, that's right. That's right.
michelle (17:28)
it's again, and you know what I also think? Like the whole body conversation, safety conversations, the consent conversations, all of this. We don't have those conversations the day before our kids go to a sleepover and frighten the life out of them then. I mean, like, talk about suck the life out.
Kristi (17:42)
No. We've had we should have had them for ages.
michelle (17:46)
Yeah, it's
that
suck the life out of any kind of joy of childhood. You know, if we don't feel like our kids are prepped up by that
Kristi (17:54)
Mm.
michelle (17:55)
stage, oh my gosh, you know.
Kristi (17:57)
Well,
I do want to say like I agree with you and like my experience with this is if they have like the gentle sharing of body safety consent, all of this throughout childhood. It's gentle
michelle (18:06)
Yeah. Yeah.
Kristi (18:08)
little nudges and reminders and you've written about the framework of safety for kids in and bullying and all of these things in your book. one of the things that I did at school
maybe subconsciously. I don't know. I saw, you know, domestic violence and coercive control in my work as a police officer. So I was talking about domestic not domestic violence, but coercive control and bullying and peer pressure, as a way, you know, I would highlight to my daughter in like conversation, hey, you know, if a friend ever makes you feel unsafe or if a friend ever does, says, I won't play with you if you don't do this, that's actually not being a really good friend.
And you have the right to say no to anything. And you know, like I used to nudge her very gently when I saw things in her peer groups, right? so. When she was going to sleepovers, I was like, right, she understands what peer pressure is, she understands what bullying is, she understands
michelle (18:55)
Yeah, yeah.
Kristi (18:57)
that she has rights to say no. She understands that she can call me at any time. She understands,
michelle (18:59)
That's right. Yeah. Yeah.
Kristi (19:02)
you know, that it's not okay if someone does anything that makes her feel unsafe or uncomfortable.
michelle (19:04)
Yeah. Yeah.
Kristi (19:06)
So all of these things were scaffolded on top of each other.
michelle (19:09)
Yeah.
Kristi (19:09)
So that
when she went somewhere, I was like, Okay, I've prepared her for whatever might come and she has the tools to say something.
michelle (19:16)
Should we go through some of the things that I would talk to kids about directly before a sleepover? Because obviously we're talking
Kristi (19:22)
Yeah, love that.
michelle (19:23)
about like body safety and that all the time. Like, and let's get off the heavier topics because like that, that's just like, my gosh. And we're not,
Kristi (19:25)
Yeah. Yeah, let's do it. I'd love that.
michelle (19:31)
we're not necessarily like, you know, full on protecting the sleepover or anti-the sleepover. That's not our point.
Kristi (19:38)
No.
michelle (19:39)
But I think what we do need to protect is unstructured, memorable friendship experiences.
That is what we need to protect. And to be able to do that, we need to scaffold safety really, really well. And
Kristi (19:52)
Mm-hmm.
michelle (19:53)
for us to be able to do that, we need to give kids the tools to walk into environments and know how to protect their emotional safety, not just their body's safety. and that's
Kristi (20:04)
I love that.
michelle (20:04)
always a two way street. That's never just a one way street. And when my kids went to other people's houses.
One of the most beautiful things I could forewarn them about is when you go into someone else's home, it's your job to respect people's safe and reasonable rules and boundaries. And they
Kristi (20:25)
Hundred percent.
michelle (20:25)
are going to be different than our homes. So I
Kristi (20:28)
Yeah.
michelle (20:29)
kind of wanted to normalize the differences that they were about to experience.
Kristi (20:32)
Mm.
michelle (20:33)
Because kids eight to twelve, because of their concrete thinking, and it's not complex yet, you know. So they're not expecting, you know, this world where they have to step into someone else's shoes and normalize things and like hold all these tensions and life's gonna
Kristi (20:45)
Yeah.
michelle (20:49)
be, they're actually going, I'm thinking the world's just like mom and dad's world, and my mom and dad are right about everything. So I
Kristi (20:53)
Yeah. Yeah.
michelle (20:55)
wanted to warn them that like they're about to step into a different environment, but
your job is to actually respect somebody else's boundaries and what their home looks
Kristi (21:05)
A hundred percent.
michelle (21:06)
like. Then my next part of that is: it is okay if you say no to anything that makes you feel uncomfortable. And
Kristi (21:13)
Mm.
michelle (21:14)
I would give them some really concrete examples of that, right? Like you might not like peas or lettuce on your bread.
Kristi (21:22)
Yeah. you just reminded me of a sleepover where I didn't like something and I was like sitting there going.
michelle (21:28)
Yeah, that's
right. This family's so weird. They eat dinner in front of the TV and my mum lets me eat it at the time. You know, like my mum doesn't let
Kristi (21:37)
Yeah.
michelle (21:38)
me eat it in front of the TV. I remember my son coming home once and he was like, They are so weird, mum. They all eat in front of the TV and they put their feet on the, you know, like cause I was quite
Kristi (21:49)
Yeah.
michelle (21:50)
structured, you know. And don't anyone judge me out there, okay?
Kristi (21:54)
Yeah.
michelle (21:54)
If I had my time out
Over again, I'd probably be a little more relaxed, but you know, I'm one of those sit round
Kristi (21:59)
Same.
michelle (22:00)
the table people. But you know, kids go into other environments and they go, my gosh, this is different. But it's okay.
Kristi (22:07)
It's good for them too.
michelle (22:08)
Yeah, it is. And it's okay for you to go, you know, I actually don't like lettuce, or is it okay if I take the lettuce off this sandwich? Now I remember my beautiful son Matthew coming home and going.
I love Dylan's mum. Dylan's mum always remembers that I don't like lettuce and she doesn't put lettuce on my bread. And like Dylan's mum was his favorite person in the whole world
Kristi (22:35)
Yeah.
michelle (22:36)
because she remembered that he didn't like lettuce on her sandwich. So to all the mums
Kristi (22:40)
Made him feel special.
michelle (22:41)
out there who are making up the sandwiches tailor-made to their kids' friends, you rock. You rock.
Kristi (22:47)
It makes a difference. Yep.
michelle (22:49)
And then the other one I used to say to my kids' friends too is like if you don't speak up and tell people what you want or need, they're not gonna know. Because like
Kristi (22:58)
Yeah, exactly. A hundred percent.
michelle (23:00)
I'm the only one as your mom that can read your mind as beautifully as I do. You know, like I am a special,
Kristi (23:03)
Yeah.
michelle (23:06)
I'm a special being here, but no one else is gonna treat you like that. So don't go walking into someone else's home and getting yourself all sucky in a knot because your friend doesn't understand that you wanna play this and
they don't want that. You actually have to speak up, even if it's a little bit, you know, uncomfortable, you don't know how to. And of
Kristi (23:24)
Mm.
michelle (23:25)
course they can phone you anytime and all the rest of it, but we want them to advocate for themselves as much as possible.
Kristi (23:31)
Mm, mm. Yeah. I just remember when my daughter had people stay over, I would do similar things. Like I would, you know, say to the child or the children, I'd be like, Right, I don't know what you like or don't like. So if you don't like anything, just let me know. I'm fine with it, you know. and I would always say to my daughter, pay attention to the people who get quiet.
because they're the ones who might be feeling a little bit uncomfortable. So and you know, you can feel like kids can feel uncomfortable for any reason. I remember like back when I was growing up, you went to friends' houses and, there was eight of you at a time. I don't know what the 80s, 90s parents were doing, but like it was massive sleepovers, right? And there would be heaps of kids there. And I wasn't like it used to put me off because I wasn't used to so many people.
So I would go really quiet and I'd used to hang out with my friend's mum. I'd go and sit in the kitchen with mum. And and so, you know, that used to make me feel a bit more comfortable or I'd need time out. And sometimes at night I couldn't sleep because it was just so weird and I would lay there all night awake, you know, and I was too scared to upset anyone. So I wouldn't say anything. And so, some of our kids
michelle (24:36)
Well you what you're
Kristi (24:37)
are like that.
michelle (24:38)
and you know what you're describing. You're describing the hostess with the mostess and I
Kristi (24:41)
Yeah.
michelle (24:42)
think when kids come to our home, we've we've gotta not vanish. You know, I feel like our job is to
Kristi (24:48)
Mm. We gotta be available.
michelle (24:50)
scaffold safety and to look for kids' needs. And we can't expect
Kristi (24:54)
Check in.
michelle (24:56)
yeah, I can't expect our kids to read each other so beautifully. When my
Kristi (25:00)
No.
michelle (25:00)
nieces used to come to stay.
And they are about four years younger than my boys. they would stay in a separate room than my boys. and they would all
Kristi (25:09)
Mm-hmm. Yep.
michelle (25:10)
have their beanbags, do the movies until 10:30 at night, and then they would stay in separate rooms. But I used to give them a little bowl of lollies next to their beds or their, you know, their made-up sleepover beds. But I would say to them, if you wake up in the middle of the night, they're about eight or whatever. If you wake
Kristi (25:28)
Yeah.
michelle (25:28)
up in the middle of the night, you can
Wake me up anytime. We can phone
Kristi (25:32)
Mm.
michelle (25:33)
your mum. But if you just wake up and you're just a little bit, you know, restless, you can always have your little snack of lollies. And they absolutely loved it. So I started doing Yay! Yeah!
Kristi (25:44)
Auntie Michelle's house was so awesome.
michelle (25:47)
And I started doing it with my boys' friends and they would act so tough like they didn't care, but they were like, Your mum's so
Kristi (25:52)
Yeah.
michelle (25:52)
cool.
Kristi (25:53)
Yeah. Yeah. And I mean when they get a bit older, and you're gonna go into the complex thinking stuff, but when they get a bit older also, you know, like my daughter's friends would be like. Hey Kristi, can we ask you a question? 'Cause and I'd be like, Are you sure you don't want to ask your mum and dad? And they'd be like, we can't ask them. So they were asking me questions that they knew I would.
Like I used to then I would report to parents, Hey guys, we've had this conversation last night, just letting you know. I'm sure their parents were like, thank God Kristi handled it 'cause we would have my daughter would have a sleepover with a few friends and a subject would come up and then I'd get, Mom, and I'd come in, I'm like, Is everyone okay? And they're like, we wanna ask you a question. And so, you know, like I was that
I became that go to person for like the tough stuff because they didn't feel safe to ask anywhere else or they knew they would get a real answer age appropriately, of course. I didn't just blurt it all out there, but I would check everyone's level of knowledge and go, Okay, what what is it you really want to know? and so I think that's beautiful.
michelle (26:49)
And do you think it
do you think it's fair to say it might not be that kids don't feel safe to ask their parents? It might be,
Kristi (26:58)
Hmm. Maybe not.
michelle (27:00)
yeah, like and I think that's really fair sometimes because I feel like as kids grow, their parents' opinion becomes one of many opinions that they start to process.
Kristi (27:11)
Mm, sure.
michelle (27:13)
And that's what complex thinking is about.
It's about taking in a wider view of the world and actually starting
Kristi (27:20)
Mmm, gotcha.
michelle (27:22)
to go, this is what the world looks like as a whole. And my parents are just one part of that whole. And that is really
hard for parents to handle for a little while,
Kristi (27:31)
Yeah.
michelle (27:32)
especially while kids are like taking in this wider scoop. And that's what I can imagine
Kristi (27:36)
Yeah.
michelle (27:37)
what you're
Kristi (27:38)
Also, I think it they get a bit of confidence in a group. So it's like, everyone else is asking. I've been wondering about that. Like at least I don't have to be the person who asks, you know, like so sometimes that's
michelle (27:45)
Try. Let's try. And they're not eyeballing their
parents with a weird, you know, like with a question that's intense that they know. Like you have such a different relationship with your kids. So a 15 or a 14 year old eyeballing their parent over a different topic, or like an intense topic, is way different than being at a sleepover with six other friends and it's heightened and it's emotional. And let's
Kristi (28:13)
Mm.
michelle (28:13)
Drag in Kristi's mum and ask her and just see what she says. Cause even the
Kristi (28:17)
Yeah.
michelle (28:17)
drama of that is exciting. So I feel like it's really throwing
Kristi (28:19)
Yeah. Yeah, drama.
michelle (28:22)
Yeah, it kind of throws parents under the bus to go, well, they weren't the safe enough parents, so they had to ask it
Kristi (28:27)
Well, I used to always say, Are you sure you don't want to talk to your parents? Like this is something
michelle (28:31)
Yeah.
Kristi (28:32)
you should be talking about with your parents and they would be like, no, no, no. And but now that you point it out, I'm thinking, yeah, maybe it was more that as a group in a collective it was safer to talk about it. And you're
michelle (28:41)
It was.
Kristi (28:43)
right, because sitting across from your parents going, Hey, let's talk about some of these topics because they were crazy and wild, some of these questions that they used to throw me, and I'd
michelle (28:53)
And the stories,
hey, the stories.
Kristi (28:55)
and the stories, like if we don't talk
about it with our kids they're literally getting it from the internet, their friends or like someone who we don't want them to be talking to about it. So I used to just go look, I was always that parent. I'm sure some parents went, Kristi I wish you hadn't have talked about it. I don't think my kids are safe enough. And I'd be like, But they were talking about it. So I didn't want to give them I wanted them to know that they are safe to talk about it. You
michelle (29:16)
Yeah, you gotta be careful, hey? Yeah.
Kristi (29:18)
know, I know I used to have that conversation, but I was always
very honest and blunt with people and I used to say, look, I'd prefer they got it from us, like me as a parent educator, than from someone else. And look, I didn't lead the conversation these girls did. So they're already involved like they're already being exposed to this stuff.
michelle (29:36)
And let's come back to the challenge of sleepovers. Okay, we've got after 8:30 at night, we've got a prefrontal cortex that's going to sleep even more. It's going offline even more than it already is. We've got
Kristi (29:49)
Yeah.
michelle (29:50)
a limbic system that is more active. All the hot topics come to the surface. And again,
Kristi (29:55)
Yeah.
michelle (29:56)
we've got an adult.
that needs to be to a certain degree scaffolding. I don't know why the hell we even call them sleep overs. No one's sleeping till two o'clock in the morning anyway. So between say eight thirty and two o'clock, if parents are not prepared to be actively around and Yeah. And just
Kristi (30:12)
And supervising. Just checking in,
ta putting the thumb on the finger on the pulse kind of thing. Yeah.
michelle (30:18)
Absolutely. When these hot topics
are coming up, there's stuff that can go wrong. Yeah.
Kristi (30:23)
Mm.
michelle (30:24)
Yeah.
Kristi (30:24)
It's interesting that you mention about the after 8:30. I reckon, well, I I used to have this saying to my daughter all the time, I still say it now, nothing good happens after midnight. And so, you know, like that time frame after midnight, especially with tired teenagers
michelle (30:38)
Midnight, four AM.
Kristi (30:39)
and young people, I used to say, if you can be asleep by midnight.
It's a good time to be asleep. I know that, you know, some sometimes the sleepovers go forever and but there's kids out there that are like, I need to sleep. And there's kids out there
michelle (30:51)
Can't cope. Yeah, they can't cope. Yeah.
Kristi (30:53)
like my daughter's come home from sleepovers and she hasn't slept the night. And I've gone, Oof, this is gonna be and you you're riding out that storm for a couple of days afterwards 'cause they've been sleep deprived. that's another thing.
michelle (31:02)
Absolutely. A tip for parents
is too is to have a spare room set up that when kids have had enough and need to tap out, that can be the room that they go to to sleep. So one thing
Kristi (31:13)
good idea.
michelle (31:14)
I did used to do, like just say they were all sleeping in like the rumpus room or we've got an attic, right? And that's where they were. When kids had like just were like overwhelmed or had enough, and it was say eleven thirty, and you know how they poke each other to keep each other awake or whatever.
Kristi (31:30)
Yeah.
michelle (31:31)
They needed to remove themselves and go to sleep. I would just have a spare
Kristi (31:34)
Yep. Otherwise things go wrong.
michelle (31:36)
place. Yeah, I'd have a spare place where they could actually go to sleep if they wanted to go to sleep.
Kristi (31:41)
Mm.
michelle (31:42)
And, you know, the rowdy bunch who wanted to stay up a little bit later could be where they wanted to be. Yeah, I think that stuff like that, that's methodic
Kristi (31:46)
Keep going. Yeah. That's smart.
michelle (31:51)
safety. Yeah.
Kristi (31:51)
I used to have a no closed doors room, so it was no closed doors in bedrooms. they obviously could close the bathroom door and the toilet, but you know, it yeah, it was
michelle (31:59)
Thanks, Kristi. That's good.
Kristi (32:01)
a no you know, it's like and one person in the bathroom at a time, like
michelle (32:05)
Yeah.
Kristi (32:06)
but you know, like it was we don't close the bedroom doors. We didn't have a bedroom unless you were getting changed or you needed some privacy. But only
michelle (32:13)
Mm.
Kristi (32:13)
because
teenagers being teenagers, they'll they'll look things up on the internet that they know that they shouldn't be looking at. And, it just meant that I had I could go and intervene or just go, hey guys, like that's not a safe like we're not looking at that to here.
michelle (32:25)
Yeah, keep it checking. Yeah.
Kristi (32:27)
And I also had a rule of putting like everyone's devices went into like onto the kitchen bench at a certain time. I'd
michelle (32:32)
Yeah.
Kristi (32:33)
be like, sleepovers are about movies, silly like playing some board games or like some card
michelle (32:39)
Yeah.
Kristi (32:39)
games or like play, you know, that's what
sleepovers are about, we don't need devices because devices just take away from the experience. So let's everyone put them on
michelle (32:47)
All right.
Kristi (32:48)
the kitchen table. you've got they're there if you need them, but like let's try and do this without them, guys. and you know I used to pre-warn parents I'd say, hey, their devices are going to go on the lounge on the kitchen bench at eight o'clock so that they can watch a movie and hang out together and be involved together, be present. So just so you know they will have them available but it's not going to be in their hand.
michelle (33:08)
And it's beautiful when you have those pre-conversations. So no one's concerned. I remember having a boy over once that was he actually had his family separated. So his mum and dad were separated
Kristi (33:19)
Mm.
michelle (33:20)
and he moved between two homes. So he was very, very used to having that device in his hand 24-7. So he could contact his man mom
Kristi (33:26)
Yeah. Managing.
michelle (33:27)
at dad's house and dad at mum's house, but he was very attached to his mom. And for him, not having that device was a big deal. So
Having that pre-conversation with that mum, again coming back to communication with all those questions that we brought up before was so important. Cause when I got to the technology question or conversation, for that particular boy, he was actually going to have a meltdown if he couldn't
Kristi (33:54)
Yeah.
michelle (33:55)
access that phone at night. So the rigidity
Kristi (33:57)
Yeah.
michelle (33:58)
and I'm not saying you're your no, but
Kristi (34:00)
No, no. I just said I used to say
they're there if you want to have a look at them, but like let's try and spend some time without them 'cause that's what you're here for.
michelle (34:03)
That's right. Yeah. That's right.
But for for that boy, he would have had an actual panic attack because of the way his
Kristi (34:12)
Mm, I've seen that.
michelle (34:13)
life was managed outside of the home. And we wanna facilitate time away from devices.
And I also want parents to realize that without those conversations, we won't be able to step into that child's shoes or that family's shoes and understand their experience without technology. Should we head into some fun things that we can do to set up sleepovers in a fun way?
Kristi (34:39)
Yeah, I'd love that.
michelle (34:40)
I think this is important because, you know, if we want to scaffold safety well, we have to replace,
with fun. If we're gonna take maybe a device that could potentially be unsafe, we have to have fun. And with a lot of kids too, with you know, neurodivergence or neurodiversity, that sleepovers can be very overwhelming as well. So what
Kristi (35:01)
Mm.
michelle (35:01)
I used to do, the teacher in me, Kristi, this is the teacher in me. I used
Kristi (35:06)
I love it.
michelle (35:06)
to Yeah, I know. I would sit the kids down and this is like
even up to like, you know, like 12, 13, you know, pushing it sort of time. But I'd say to them, okay, we're gonna make sure this is fun. We're gonna have a great time. We've got like 36 hours together or whatever. And
Kristi (35:23)
Mm.
michelle (35:24)
that's a long time, boys. So you're gonna have some lulls. You're gonna have some times where you might even get each other's nerves. You kind of set it up in a way that you go, that's a lot of hours. And we want to
Kristi (35:36)
Mm.
michelle (35:36)
do a just
20 minutes of planning together to make sure this thing goes well. And you
Kristi (35:41)
Mm.
michelle (35:41)
could even have a fight. So what are we going to do then? You know, like it's this kind of like, you know, set up kind of thing. And
Kristi (35:45)
Wow. Yeah.
michelle (35:48)
you go, like, call me Auntie Michelle. Actually, I am the fun police here because I want to make
Kristi (35:53)
Yeah.
michelle (35:53)
sure this works. So, what I used to do is I used to set up like with them, we used to brainstorm 12 activities, but I used to make
sure at least two were really high energy.
At least two were really low stimulation, low energy. So when the group
Kristi (36:10)
Wow.
michelle (36:10)
needed to come down, they had somewhere to go.
Kristi (36:13)
Yeah. Well, especially before
bed or something, like you need to like slowly bring back.
michelle (36:18)
Yep. What what they were gonna do if they needed time out and time to themselves, you know, and that included that room where they could go by themselves. I
Kristi (36:27)
Yeah.
michelle (36:27)
needed them to know that they're ex I was accessible twenty-four seven. I needed them to know what food they could get any time they want to. So that fridge, see that fridge in the garage? I used to just fill it full of stuff. That's yours. Like literally at midnight, if you wake up and you want food, you go right that fridge. You know, like so
I would kind of say I know,
Kristi (36:48)
I think I wanna sleep over at your house.
michelle (36:50)
I was cool. but I wanted to be the coolest mum on the block, you know. But I used to make sure there was a range of activities. What was it? High energy, low energy. What you're gonna do if you need
Kristi (36:59)
Low energy.
michelle (37:02)
some time out. Okay, and then what we're gonna do if there's too much tension, you know, if there's
Kristi (37:06)
Yeah.
michelle (37:07)
tension, where can we transition if there's too much tension? And it was awesome.
Kristi (37:13)
What
do they look like? What did they look like? Some of these things. That would be great. Go back go back to that high energy.
michelle (37:13)
Because yeah, okay. Let me I need to really think back. Okay. So high
okay. So high energy for my particular kids, and this is only my family, we didn't have a lot of video games. we just we weren't set up that way. We just don't we just we're not a big tech family, but we had we have really cool sports stuff. So we have
Kristi (37:38)
Mm.
michelle (37:39)
kayaks.
We have a river down there.
Kristi (37:42)
Mm-hmm.
michelle (37:42)
so it was it involved a lot of activities and sport and we've got a pool. So everything really involved that kind of stuff. Now the other thing we used to
Kristi (37:47)
Yeah, cool. That's high energy. Anything that involves
water is very exhausting too.
michelle (37:53)
Uh-huh. And the other thing, Kristi, we used to do kite flying during yeah. and what are those things like they're like rockets that you launch? Yep.
Kristi (38:04)
yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
michelle (38:05)
From the local park. We used to do that. And sprint race runs where they used to have competitions. So that was some of
Kristi (38:12)
Yeah, yeah.
michelle (38:12)
our like go-to stuff that kids would come to our house and know that, like, let's do this.
Kristi (38:17)
That's gonna happen.
michelle (38:18)
Yeah, let's do that, you know. So
We would have that, right? the coming together stuff when like things were getting tense, I actually would always go, you know what I think we should do as like when things are getting tense, I think we should come together and cook. So I would have pizza bases already pre-made up with
Kristi (38:37)
Mm-hmm.
michelle (38:37)
toppings half done. So they they could do some of the work, but not all of the
Kristi (38:42)
Yeah, yeah.
michelle (38:42)
work. And we used to crack out the pizza bases.
now you think boys, Kristi, you think they don't like decorating cupcakes? no no they love it, right?
See what?
Kristi (38:55)
Boys
love everything that everyone like we don't we need to stop like gendering stuff, right? Because they just love everything.
michelle (39:00)
Uh-huh.
And they can pile up Mr. Whippy like icing
Kristi (39:04)
Yeah.
michelle (39:05)
sugar and that stuff. Like they love it, man. Right?
Kristi (39:08)
Yeah, they would be.
michelle (39:10)
So as a coming together thing, if things were getting tense, I would always say, I think cooking will bring us together. Like, how about we just hub in the kitchen and I'll take I'll take the lead on the cooking boys and we will just make the meal.
So we would do that. and then it would be movies for stuff like that as well. low stimulus things was often things like, you know, video games or and we used to have more sports video games, but it would also be things like card games, board games, you know, they weren't so much into reading, but just stuff that was
Kristi (39:47)
Even things like Uno or even things like Uno or or like a
michelle (39:47)
Quieter. Yeah, they love to
Kristi (39:51)
or like a card game of some description, you know, is always good because the adults are involved with the kids. Like, you know, if you set up a game and you start playing and we used to play Mario Kart, like it it doesn't have to be online, it can be just Mario
michelle (40:03)
Absolutely.
Kristi (40:04)
Kart and like yeah, I would start sledging the kids and going, I'm gonna beat you and that
michelle (40:09)
Like
Kristi (40:09)
so I agree with you. the cooking thing
Such a cool idea. Like a lot some kids might
michelle (40:13)
How about
Kristi (40:14)
not get that.
michelle (40:15)
no, but how about reruns of something like everyone run loves Raymond or some really old school thing that they haven't really discovered yet and you think it's really cool, but they've got
Kristi (40:27)
Damn.
michelle (40:27)
to rate you after one episode? Like my husband
Kristi (40:30)
Yeah.
michelle (40:30)
was so fun like that. He would have like this list of three old school kind of like comedy series or something.
Kristi (40:38)
Sitcom
michelle (40:39)
Yeah, and he would go, Okay, when you get really bored, I want you to try these three and give me a rating. And it was amazing.
Kristi (40:45)
Yeah.
michelle (40:46)
Like that would fill in a little bit of time as well.
Kristi (40:49)
I can't believe we used to show our daughter and her friends all of our old movies, like the Goonies and you know, all of the eighties
michelle (40:54)
Yeah, yeah.
Kristi (40:57)
types movies and like she still watches they're her comfort videos, right? So if she's having a like a day if she's in bed, she's like rewatching eighties movies. And I'm like,
michelle (41:06)
I love it.
Kristi (41:07)
Yeah, that's her comfort movies 'cause we used to watch them when we wanted to all just hang and be 'cause they're low like the movies aren't like there's not a lot of
big themes and it's just fun and it's just a bit of adventure.
michelle (41:20)
we've got to think
we've got to think memories, don't we? Not like we just gotta think making memories. And for us, it was always 11 p.m. walk around the streets with us.
Kristi (41:31)
Wow.
michelle (41:32)
And that would be like it was like a routine, especially Christmas holidays. It was like, no, no, as
Kristi (41:37)
Yeah, right.
michelle (41:37)
a family, we head out at 11 o'clock and they'd go, your family's so
Kristi (41:41)
Yeah.
michelle (41:41)
cool. And like our boys would go, Yeah, we're cool. And like it was like
What was funny about it is we actually often did that with them when they were fourteen. Particularly
Kristi (41:51)
Mm.
michelle (41:52)
my oldest boy. He would get sort of restless before bed and he'd go, Mom, take me for
Kristi (41:57)
Mm.
michelle (41:57)
a take me for a walk. And it was my time
Kristi (42:00)
What a cool idea.
michelle (42:01)
with him. So he would drag me out at eleven o'clock and it was some of the most special time I ever had with him when he was a teenager.
Kristi (42:08)
Well, I'm sure like your kids like mine at about that time, ten, eleven, they wanna like tell you everything that's happening for them and they wanna like offload all of their stuff that's going on for them or just, you know, what's going on in their
michelle (42:20)
Yeah.
Kristi (42:20)
head. That time of night, I don't know about you, but my daughter used to like go, Mom, I need to talk to you and it'd be like ten thirty and you're like catching yourself
michelle (42:27)
Yeah.
Kristi (42:28)
half snore and she would be and I'd have to climb into bed with her and stuff, but the walk would work.
Amazingly for boys.
michelle (42:35)
It's rhythm. It's rhythm. It's side by side. Rhythm late at night, cold air on your face. And my beautiful son used to always challenge me to jump in the pool afterwards or an ice bath. Yeah. And
Kristi (42:49)
Really? Wow.
michelle (42:52)
I would suck it up as a mum and do it. And then we'd head to bed and it worked. But that was a teenage thing. but you can imagine six boys over for the night.
And one after another they all get in a ice bath, loud as heck, they're waiting the neighbors up and then and then they go watch a movie. Settle. See that's how you do it, parents.
Kristi (43:10)
Yeah.
michelle (43:11)
And and it's exhausting. Yeah.
Kristi (43:13)
I know it is exhausting, but you know, like because a lot of the criticism around sleepovers is everyone's like they're protecting their kids, they're wrapping them up in cotton wool, they're doing all of these things and you know, our kids aren't but when I think about sleepovers, I reckon they didn't really become a thing because we used to have sleepovers with our cousins and our family members, right? So that used to be what where sleepovers originated from. It used to be you had your cousins around. And then
michelle (43:37)
That's right. Your family,
yeah.
Kristi (43:39)
s
families started like, you know, splitting off and not having them. So I think that's where sleepovers started is that it became sleepovers with you know, other parents and stuff. I think we can make it work. We can make these things work as long as we have the intention to keep like scaffold the safety and make it fun and still keep supervising. Like I never left my daughter alone.
with her friends. Like it was my duty to keep the kids in my home safe. Like it was my number one priority. Number one priority. And if you
michelle (44:07)
Hundred percent. Yeah. I would look, I've
if I had kids again, I'd be picking them up at ten thirty at night. Have all the memories,
Kristi (44:16)
Mm.
michelle (44:16)
have all the fun, sleep in your own bed. Like I just can't see the need. Like why? But what their
Kristi (44:20)
It's it's better. You don't see the need? Yeah, I'm No.
michelle (44:24)
lack of sleep, I don't see them getting any quality memories between ten and four AM. And there's too high risk for trouble. But
I'm not saying parents that like maybe you have great family friends or cousins and it's working great for your family, but there's a lot to consider these days. You know, there's a lot to consider.
Kristi (44:42)
You have to have the good values
and and conversations. Like you know, the people that my daughter slept over with, I had conversations. Like these weren't people I just met yesterday. These were people that my daughter had low risk you know, play dates. We went out together as families. We we became friends, we talked about these things. I was more than comfortable about questioning these things.
Like for me there was no sleepovers with people who I have had only just met. You know, and I see this, I don't
michelle (45:07)
Yeah.
Kristi (45:08)
know about you, Michelle, but I see and hear this. Like your kids start the new school year and all of a sudden the first weekend there's like, I've been invited to a sleepover. And you don't know that family. You don't haven't had a conversation and you know, like so for me
michelle (45:19)
Mm-hmm. I know.
Kristi (45:21)
that you've got to consider who is the safest. and ten thirty is
michelle (45:25)
Yeah.
Kristi (45:25)
a great time. Like I think you're right.
michelle (45:27)
And for a lot of families, that's like their bid for connection to build intimacy,
Kristi (45:32)
Course.
michelle (45:32)
to build a friendship with your child. And I think we need to take that at face value and appreciate that.
Kristi (45:39)
Mm.
michelle (45:39)
But you know, like it might be like just easier for families to say, look, we don't do sleepovers, but what we want to do is build these beautiful memories for our kids and quality friendship time.
What if we could do all of those things and I still pick them up at ten thirty? That means you get sleep, our kids get sleep and they still get all
Kristi (45:56)
I guess yeah.
michelle (45:58)
the memories.
Kristi (45:59)
Beautiful way to say that. Or you know, I used to offer like, hey, let's have a like catch up at the park, let's take them to a play center when they were younger, let's do this and like, you know, let's get to know each other because I think we're all trying to do like you want to create a community around your kids, right? You want to create a
michelle (46:15)
Yeah.
Kristi (46:16)
like you want to build these relationships with other people. So it's really important that we make opportunities to build them.
And so it's easier when they're younger. I do remember like it but they get to a certain age and then all of a sudden parents aren't cool and they want to do everything on their own. What's your recommendations when they start
michelle (46:33)
Yeah, really.
Kristi (46:34)
getting or when they start like pushing back and going, I don't want you to come with me everywhere anymore.
michelle (46:39)
Yeah. I'd say test and measure.
Kristi (46:40)
How do you reckon you manage that stuff?
michelle (46:42)
Yeah, test and measure and watch how they come home. So it's who kids are when they walk away from a relationship that tells you a lot about the time they had when they were with someone. So the experience you
Kristi (46:55)
Yeah, got it.
michelle (46:56)
have when you're with someone has an impact on you. So Kristi, every time I'm with you, I come away feeling so joyful
Kristi (47:03)
Yeah.
michelle (47:04)
and so appreciated.
And so just full and loved.
Kristi (47:08)
Thank you.
michelle (47:08)
And that's the way I want our kids to feel when they're with a friend. Now, when our kids come home and they're feeling miserable and they're feeling cranky, or you watch them change and their values are changing, or they're snappy,
Kristi (47:19)
Yep. That's a
michelle (47:21)
you go, okay, maybe not such a quality relationship. Now we can't necessarily tell them who or who not to hang around with, but we can start to ask them
to answer the question, how do you feel after you've been with that person? Because that tells
Kristi (47:35)
Mm. Yeah.
michelle (47:37)
you a lot about the quality of the relationship itself.
Kristi (47:40)
Yeah. And also helping them identify when someone is not actually making them feel good you know, because all friendships are like a warm-up practice for relationships. So if they can start identifying their friendships don't make them feel good and and they don't walk away feeling loved and special and all of the things that we want them to feel in their relationships.
Then you know, having conversations about well, if you don't feel good, maybe that's like maybe we need to look at, what's going on for you, what's going on for them. I mean, you've got more your whole friendship smart book is about, you know, helping kids
michelle (48:11)
Okay.
Kristi (48:12)
Yeah. And so I'm imagining that you've
michelle (48:14)
So it's
Kristi (48:15)
got so many parts of it many bits of advice in there about how to help manage this.
michelle (48:20)
I say that like we're not this is not about solving today's friendship drama. I want parents to zoom out. This is not about surviving grade five or surviving grade eight. This is about setting our kids up with the relationship skills they need for the rest of their lives. And so when we're looking at our kids interacting, we're saying if this pattern continued, will this serve them in 10 years' time? That's the
Kristi (48:43)
Mm-hmm.
michelle (48:44)
question we need to be asking ourselves. And if there's anything
Kristi (48:46)
Good question.
michelle (48:47)
I want parents to know, is
Relationships, both platonic and romantic, are hinged on three things safety, chemistry, and effort. So I know that
Kristi (48:58)
Mm.
michelle (48:58)
you and I both hooked into safety a lot today, but we also talked about chemistry. We talked about making things fun. We talked about putting effort into the sleepover. We talked about all three of these things. And to have a quality effort.
relationship, friendship experience, we need to be managing all three. It's not just about safety. And so
Kristi (49:19)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
michelle (49:21)
our kids need to come into these friendship experiences, being able to balance all three.
Kristi (49:27)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. What's your recommendations, I guess? You know, because like if a child's struggling with some of those things, like, okay, we've got it all. safety's there and it's all happening and
michelle (49:37)
Yeah, we scaffolded. Mm-hmm.
Kristi (49:38)
like we've got it all sorted, but the chemistry and the effort isn't there, like one side or the other, it could be your child
michelle (49:42)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Kristi (49:44)
or it could be the other child. Like, where are we, what conversations should we be having or what can we be doing?
michelle (49:49)
Hey, great.
Okay, this is my book, right? So from Safety, Chemistry, and Effort, I actually have created a framework. And from that comes 12 friendship shapes. So
Kristi (50:00)
Mm.
michelle (50:01)
parents can actually see safety, chemistry, and effort rated out of 10, depending on their kids' friendship experience, which produces 12 friendship shapes. So I'm
Kristi (50:11)
Mm-hmm.
michelle (50:12)
going to give you one example. I'm going to pull on something you just said.
There's lots of safety if it's reasonable because they play soccer together every single week and they're both interacting, but there's no chemistry, there's no spark, there's no ease, there's not enough playfulness for that friend to be inviting them to a birthday party or to be inviting them back to their house to hang out a bit more. So I call that a situational friendship.
That's the type of friend that you just sit with in maths every Tuesday, but the relationship doesn't go beyond that. When kids
Kristi (50:48)
Mm-hmm.
michelle (50:48)
can identify whether it's a safety, chemistry, or effort issue, we can actually
Kristi (50:53)
Mm-hmm.
michelle (50:54)
step in and help give them the skills, the scripts, the strategies
Kristi (50:58)
Mm-hmm.
michelle (50:59)
to actually strengthen their friendships. So
Kristi (51:03)
Yeah.
michelle (51:03)
say Kristi, it was a safety issue. We'd know it's
Kristi (51:08)
Yeah. It Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
michelle (51:08)
Boundaries, right? We'd know
exactly how to help them with that. If it's a chemistry issue, then we're actually there's things that we can do to help our kids with conversation, with reading the room, with knowing when to stop talking, yeah, with helping develop interests. It's helping develop interests that create spark, right? And also helping them realize that they're not going to have chemistry that.
with every single person and every single person
Kristi (51:38)
You can't force it.
michelle (51:39)
is not gonna have high no not gonna have high chemistry with them and that simple understanding is actually gonna help them realize that all people are their people. All safe people are
Kristi (51:50)
Mm.
michelle (51:51)
their people but they don't have to be close friends with everyone because they're not gonna have high chemistry with everyone. And effort, right?
Kristi (51:57)
That's a hard thing to understand when
you're a when you're a teen, like early teens, young ten, like that's a hard thing because kids want everyone to be their friend.
michelle (52:05)
It's the most mature friendship skill, relationship skill.
Kristi (52:09)
Yeah.
michelle (52:09)
Because a lot of kids are just sitting there going, I want that person to be my close
Kristi (52:14)
Yeah.
michelle (52:14)
friend here now, because I want to click with that person, but that person's not clicking with them. So that's
Kristi (52:22)
Yeah.
michelle (52:22)
actually really important for them. And effort, that third thing, when it's one sided and it's not reciprocal, and that's why we want to teach them.
about like those
Kristi (52:32)
Mm.
michelle (52:33)
scales and and like sprinkling like confetti to see what comes back rather than offering these big grand gestures in the hope of developing intimacy. That's often what our girls do. They'll secret share on a sleepover. They'll they'll dump out every, yeah, they'll dump out every heart, you know, heart story. And then the next day they'll go, my gosh, you know, like I put so much effort into that friendship in a 24 hour period.
and they'll realize it's not coming back. So it's making sure those scales are just got that little even tilt. And if our kids could just learn those skills and build on those three things, they're gonna have such, such a head start in life.
Kristi (53:15)
Mm. I love that. I really wish I had of known how to help my daughter manage that. Cause she did that. Like as girls, they just like dump onto their friends, like they've known them 24 hours, and next thing they're wondering why, you know, that friendship's like, mm, and you know, my daughter and I've done that too. I think you know, sometimes our young boys do too as well, but I think it's a really big balancing act. And I one last thing I wanted to ask you though. So
is sometimes our kids need a like I think one of the best ways and it goes into that safety side, but it also I think is the chemistry and the effort. Is how do we or is there any one thing that we can give our kids to help them like pull themselves out of a situation or
michelle (53:56)
Remove.
Kristi (53:57)
manage a situ remove themselves. Yeah, great. Remove themselves from a situation or you know, just 'cause
when I think about some of the things that I had was in and maybe didn't feel confident speaking up and I think, you know, especially with sleepovers, with, being in situations where you might not be ready for it, but you thought you were. And just those I
michelle (54:15)
Yeah.
Kristi (54:16)
think it's a safety tool to go, okay, here's the script or here's the thing you can say that help you get out of that.
michelle (54:23)
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And like there's different ways kids can say no. and I talk to kids about saying a soft no or a hard no, depending on the situation they're in. Cause what you're describing to me is I feel in over my head, I feel uncomfortable, but it's not actually a safety threat. It's I'm uncomfortable and
I'm choosing to move, and I don't have to blame anyone or anything because I'm actually not physically under threat here. And I do
Kristi (54:52)
Yes.
michelle (54:52)
want kids to recognize the difference between, say, a genuine red flag that's like someone's you know, like someone's actually out to get them, and that's a situation
Kristi (55:04)
Mm-hmm.
michelle (55:04)
that needs to be a firm, hard no run for your life situation. Or
Kristi (55:10)
Yeah.
michelle (55:11)
I know that it's like, hey, this ain't for me. And and I need to keep
Kristi (55:14)
Yes.
michelle (55:15)
moving slowly. And for me, that's the difference between a one-liner that's maybe just keeps kids moving and keeps kids in their own space and in their own energy. They don't have to give too much of their time or energy or emotion to things that they don't need to. I think we've taught kids a lot of quick comebacks.
And we've started a lot of nuclear wars that don't need to be started. Does that make sense, Kristi? Like it's like
Kristi (55:41)
Yeah. Yeah. Yep.
michelle (55:43)
not everything needs to become a nuclear war. We're teaching kids how to start nuclear wars when we don't need to. And the first place I start with kids is, is this a you thing or is this a them thing? Like, and if it's a
Kristi (55:55)
Yeah.
michelle (55:55)
you thing, then you use your manners, but you still say no. So I use
Kristi (55:59)
Mm. Yeah.
michelle (56:01)
a ball, like I get like literally a soccer ball.
And I lob
Kristi (56:05)
Mm-hmm.
michelle (56:05)
pass or hard chest pass. And I say
Kristi (56:08)
Mm.
michelle (56:09)
to them, you say no to me with a soft energy or a hard energy, depending on the situation.
Kristi (56:16)
Mm.
michelle (56:17)
You knock me off my feet, kid, if I've crossed a line. But if I haven't
Kristi (56:21)
Yeah.
michelle (56:22)
crossed a line and you still need to say no, lob pass that thing to me gracefully
Kristi (56:27)
Mm.
michelle (56:27)
and beautifully. So it might be something like,
I'm not comfortable with that. the answer's no. And I can say
Kristi (56:34)
Mm-hmm.
michelle (56:35)
that in my own skin with grace. And I can say, Kristi, that just doesn't work for me. I'm so sorry. I'm gonna have to say no. Now that's my own energy. I'm carrying it. It's got nothing to do with you. Now, if you were red flag and pushing me, belittling me, I would say that so differently. I would say,
Kristi (56:54)
Yeah.
michelle (56:55)
asked and answered already, Kristi.
It's time you moved on. The answer's no. Right?
Kristi (57:00)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
michelle (57:01)
That's more of a hard pass. And I workshop this with kids because I want them to know that their energy carries something so critical. It's not about them finding their perfect words, it's about
Kristi (57:14)
Mm.
michelle (57:15)
knowing where to place their energy.
Kristi (57:17)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. It's interesting. Like I love that. And when I see especially women, but anyone model like that soft no, I'm so in awe of people because I grew up not being able to say no. So for me, that any no is feels like, I can't say that all. And so I've had to work years and years and years of like being very like, okay, it's okay for me to say no.
And so when I hear of people who do it so well like you just did, I'm like, that's beautiful. I was on a retreat recently and the person who was running the retreat, you know, she couldn't spend time with everyone. She was just one person. And so she would say something like, I really would love to hear that, but I just don't have the time right now. Let's revisit this. Can you
michelle (57:56)
Okay.
Kristi (57:59)
come back to me and let me know, you know, when I've got time, or come back to me and when I've got time and I'll listen to that. And I was like,
I felt so seen and heard even though so she was saying no to me, right? And so that was beautiful. But the heart but the
michelle (58:10)
That's right. Because that's what boundaries
do. That's the and that's what boundaries
Kristi (58:15)
Yeah, yeah, well.
michelle (58:16)
do. They let people know that you have limits. And
Kristi (58:20)
Mm.
michelle (58:20)
I think that allowing our kids to give words to their limits is one of the most precious things we can do with our kids. It's so powerful.
Kristi (58:31)
It's powerful.
michelle (58:32)
I've got 25 year olds and 20 year olds right now that are telling me their limits.
Sometimes when they say, Mom, I don't want to come on Monday night because of X, Y, Z, blah, blah, blah. They're telling me their limits. And how I respond to that is so incredibly important because I'm actually seeing them develop into their own person. And I can push back with my limits and they them. And it is incredible. Do you know a psychiatrist, an incredible one, actually once said to me, trauma.
will make people go all or nothing. So when we
Kristi (59:04)
Mm.
michelle (59:04)
teach kids to say a no, we're often teaching them to go a hard no, an all or nothing no. But we can say no with graceful middle of the range energy and it can communicate something beautiful about what it takes to be a human being, which is to
live within a a capacity in a container that has edges.
Kristi (59:28)
Yeah, I think what a beautiful way to say it because I think a lot of the no's that I got as a child were hard no's with no room for a discussion, no room for a conversation. And so I gave my daughter lots of conversation, which is probably the whole other way. And there is this middle ground where there's some boundaries and like some conversations. and like you, I've got an adult now.
The one thing that I'm very conscious of as a parent is that you know, I have to be okay with whatever that she decides as an adult. It's not up to me what she decides. And I always said to her for a long time now, is like, I don't have to like everything you do. and that's okay. You don't like what everything I do, and that's okay. Yeah.
michelle (1:00:08)
Right? They they don't live their life to please us. I say that to my
kids all the time. You were not born to please me or agree with me or do everything that I want you to do in life. You existing
Kristi (1:00:20)
Yeah.
michelle (1:00:21)
in this world is enough for me to love you. That is it.
Kristi (1:00:25)
That's beautiful, Michelle. I could talk to you forever. I think what I would love to do is highlight that you've just brought out this amazing friendship smart book to help parents with regards to these, framework of like that safety effort and chemistry. And like I wish I had known more about that when my daughter was younger because I think I could have helped her better with her friendships. and
I'm sure, you know, if you want to just share a bit more about your book, where can they get it from and where's the best place to find it?
michelle (1:00:54)
Absolutely. It's available in all bookshops, Big W, Amazons. it's on my website with a free webinar. and maybe Kristi for your
Kristi (1:01:03)
wow, that's amazing.
michelle (1:01:05)
pod Yeah, with for your podcast, maybe I can do like they can get access to the Hubble. We can do a little offer like underneath your webinar. We should we do should we organize something special for all the people who listen
Kristi (1:01:15)
that'd be beautiful. Yep. Yeah, we should.
michelle (1:01:20)
to the very end of this?
We've talked for a long time, haven't we? Yeah.
Kristi (1:01:22)
Yeah, we're definitely we have every time we get on
every time we get on and we like just yeah, we've just got so much that really I learn something from you every time and you've got so much wisdom to share with parents and so I recommend your resources all the time. And any friend who contacts me, I'm like, go onto Michelle's website and check it out. Especially, you know, your new book is amazing, but also your teen and tween resources are amazing. So if anyone's in the
the thick of it right now with your tweens and your teens, 'cause look, it's tough gig being a parent. And so the more help you can get the better.
michelle (1:01:58)
We need to look after
Kristi (1:01:58)
Sorry, Michelle.
michelle (1:01:59)
these kids. I mean, they just we love
Kristi (1:02:02)
We do and we need to look after ourselves. Like parenting has changed a lot over the last twenty years or thirty years, more than it ever has. So we need like people like yourself, we're there for each other. okay, Michelle, I'm gonna say goodbye to you, but we will put everything in the show notes.
And we'll also give you access to that offer that Michelle's gonna send through when so check out the show notes. But have a great afternoon.
michelle (1:02:27)
Yeah, until we meet again. Kristi McVee. Talk to you soon.
Kristi (1:02:29)
I'm sure it won't be long.
Thanks, Michelle Mitchell.
michelle (1:02:33)
Lots of love. Okay. Bye.
Kristi (1:02:35)
Thank you so much for joining me in this conversation with Michelle Mitchell. What I love about talking to What I love about talking with Michelle is that she reminds us that safety and fun aren't opposites. As she put it, what we're really protecting is our kids' friendship experiences and the memories they make. And scaffolding safety is how we do that. If you take one thing away from today, let it be this. Before the next invite comes home, get comfortable asking the questions.
Warm energy, straight questions, just as Michelle said. Who will be supervising? Who else will be in the house? How will technology be managed? Where will the kids be sleeping? And a safe parent will understand why you're asking. If you get defensiveness instead, that's your answer. If you'd like a starting point, my sleepover safety checklist is on my website in the blogs, and I'll pop the link below in the show notes.
Michelle's book Friendship Smart is available now in bookshops and through Michelle's website. Go and check her website out. She's got an awesome range of resources for parents to help you. And you'll also get a free webinar if you buy it through Michelle's bookstore on her website as well. All the links will be in the show notes. If this episode was helpful, please share
it with another parent who's facing the sleepover question and leave a rating or a view so more families can find the show. Until next time, keep having those conversations and keep protecting your kids.